Ottoman

[Sun Pope]

Ottos usually either unfortunately spawn right next to me or not at all, so I never really see how they do mid or late game.. Until then, they give me a (sorta) threatening warlike neighbor. But due to the fact that they are an AI, I usually kill their armies without too much trouble and leave them with two or three very small cities (Sode note, is it just me or does the AI spam settlers when they start to lose a war? They almost always sent a settler as far away from me as possible and found a coty during the fighting)

 

[Takagi Hiro]

I have to admit that I strongly miss the free Caravansaries on these guys. Tanzimat's nice and all, but considering how long it takes to finish a trade route, as well as research extra ones, the rewards come quite late... and they're not even that powerful. The Caravansaries gave the Ottomans some earlier assistance, more freedom with their trade targets, and if you were lucky enough to roll a start that synergized with them, this gave them extra flexibility. However, without them, I just find the Ottomans to be a bit lacking. Their uniques push them towards war pretty much exclusively... and to be honest, they feel like a one trick pony.

Would it be too absurd to bring them back, especially now that they've lost the merchant slot they once had?

 

[Funak]

I have to admit that I strongly miss the free Caravansaries on these guys. Tanzimat's nice and all, but considering how long it takes to finish a trade route, as well as research extra ones, the rewards come quite late... and they're not even that powerful. The Caravansaries gave the Ottomans some earlier assistance, more freedom with their trade targets, and if you were lucky enough to roll a start that synergized with them, this gave them extra flexibility. However, without them, I just find the Ottomans to be a bit lacking. Their uniques push them towards war pretty much exclusively... and to be honest, they feel like a one trick pony.

Would it be too absurd to bring them back, especially now that they've lost the merchant slot they once had?

I personally didn't think the Ottomans were doing exceptionally well even with their free caravansaries, so I wanted to replace them with a more consistent effect, end result of the conversation however was the G decided to drop the caravansaries and add nothing to replace them. Personally I find that pretty weird and I can't say I've enjoyed playing Ottomans since then.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

The Merchants was only for 1 Beta Patch. Another thing that doesn't help is that Caravans where pushed back to another Tech.

One thing I liked was sending Trade Routes to nearby CSs while conquering my other Neighbors.

Compared to Portugal, they can get 100 Science when the TR finishes. In that Time, Portugal
would get 30 * 2 Science. It seems both the Ottoman and Portugal UA's benefit somewhat from Internal TRs.

It's somewhat disappointing to know that the Siege Foundry has no Economic advantages over the Forge.

None of the TR Civs seem to have a good UA to me. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[Funak]

The Merchants was only for 1 Beta Patch. Another thing that doesn't help is that Caravans where pushed back to another Tech.

One thing I liked was sending Trade Routes to nearby CSs while conquering my other Neighbors.

Compared to Portugal, they can get 100 Science when the TR finishes. In that Time, Portugal
would get 30 * 2 Science. It seems both the Ottoman and Portugal UA's benefit somewhat from Internal TRs.

It's somewhat disappointing to know that the Siege Foundry has no Economic advantages over the Forge.

None of the TR Civs seem to have a good UA to me. Is there something I'm missing?

First of all, Siege foundry do have a +2 hammer advantage over the forge (not really much, but it's something).

Second, Portugal aren't as bad as you make them out to be, they get a ton of great admiral/general points from their trade-routes and if they send the route to a city-state where you've built a Feitoria you get some extra hammers and food as well. They also have the added benefit of not losing out on their UA if the trade-route gets sniped by barbs in the last turn before it finishes.

That being said, I don't really see any problems with the existing Ottoman UA, I just don't think it is enough.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

That being said, I don't really see any problems with the existing Ottoman UA, I just don't think it is enough.

I do, of course, agree with you, hence why I was suggesting the Caravansaries. They seem like a small addition that could give their early game a little help, but if you want to brainstorm something else entirely, that works, too. I just figured that bringing these back wouldn't make the Ottomans overpowered or anything, while also reusing an old concept.

Yes, Caravansaries aren't a spectacular building by any means, but the assistance is always welcome, and it also somewhat thematically ties with the Tanzimat.

 

[Gazebo]

I personally didn't think the Ottomans were doing exceptionally well even with their free caravansaries, so I wanted to replace them with a more consistent effect, end result of the conversation however was the G decided to drop the caravansaries and add nothing to replace them. Personally I find that pretty weird and I can't say I've enjoyed playing Ottomans since then.

Except that I did replace them with something. Formerly you could only use the UA on international routes. Now you get bonuses for completing any route type.

G

 

[Funak]

Except that I did replace them with something. Formerly you could only use the UA on international routes. Now you get bonuses for completing any route type.

Sure, but a bonus for running international trade-routes and a bonus for running internal trade-routes are directly conflicting with eachothers, so only one of them are relevant at the time.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

Yes... In a way, it feels like the Ottomans have taken a step backwards. Sure, there's choice involved, but the bonus divided. As they were, at least by my recollection, there was a large gain upon completing a trade route, but even if it was international, it was notable. Now, not so much.

If we are going to keep Tanzimat's bonuses as they are now, and if Caravansaries sound like a bad addition, could we at least add something like their trade routes ending sooner, or maybe something like +2 gold on all trade routes, both internal/international? Just my few cents...

 

[Funak]

If we are going to keep Tanzimat's bonuses as they are now, and if Caravansaries sound like a bad addition, could we at least add something like their trade routes ending sooner, or maybe something like +2 gold on all trade routes, both internal/international? Just my few cents...

That was kinda what I was trying to do.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

That was kinda what I was trying to do.

In that case, I guess we're in complete agreement.

 

[Gokudo01]

I think if Ottoman needs little more power, we should try to improve the UB, shouldn't we ?

 

[Funak]

In that case, I guess we're in complete agreement.

Oh well, let's brainstorm for ideas for minor effects to compliment the current UA. Preferably something that isn't war-related (enough of that already) and something that matches the theme of Tanzimat (maybe, personally I don't think the Tanzimat was successful enough to actually bother with, but whatever, not really my decision).

I think if Ottoman needs little more power, we should try to improve the UB, shouldn't we ?

I don't think it's actually the UB that feels underwhelming, it is extremely warfocused, but it isn't bad. The UA however feels really underwhelming, like it is missing an effect.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

Oh well, let's brainstorm for ideas for minor effects to compliment the current UA. Preferably something that isn't war-related (enough of that already) and something that matches the theme of Tanzimat (maybe, personally I don't think the Tanzimat was successful enough to actually bother with, but whatever, not really my decision).

Yeah, well. I kinda just did that, but I could come up with a few more. I like the idea of the trade focus and would like to see something along the lines of helping it.

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+2 gold on all trade routes?
This would help in the case of a pillaged route not providing any benefits, so it's fairly solid. Economic help helps the war focus, but doesn't solely drive it. Then again, it could be an entirely different yield.

+50% trade range?
Not particularly exceptional, but it's a mimic of the Caravansary without all the extras. Could add more to this if it's not enough, and it's probably not. Tourism boost?

-33% trade duration?
Helps the Tanzimat's bonuses come sooner... but aside from that, I'm not seeing much here. Would help for Corporations, but that's so far late game that it's a non-factor.

+1 trade route at Trade?
Sending off one trade route at the beginning of the game and waiting the full length for minor returns is sorta meh. How about double?

---

I'll try to think of some others, perhaps more in depth. My brain's not totally working at the moment.

 

[Funak]

Yeah, well. I kinda just did that, but I could come up with a few more. I like the idea of the trade focus and would like to see something along the lines of helping it.

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+2 gold on all trade routes?
This would help in the case of a pillaged route not providing any benefits, so it's fairly solid. Economic help helps the war focus, but doesn't solely drive it. Then again, it could be an entirely different yield.

Probably too boring. No one cared much for the old Portuguese UA and it did pretty much exactly this.

+50% trade range?
Not particularly exceptional, but it's a mimic of the Caravansary without all the extras. Could add more to this if it's not enough, and it's probably not. Tourism boost?

Feels like this slightly tread on the feet of the civs with increased trade-range, not that the ability feels very special or useful in the first place.

-33% trade duration?
Helps the Tanzimat's bonuses come sooner... but aside from that, I'm not seeing much here. Would help for Corporations, but that's so far late game that it's a non-factor.

First of all, I don't really think it's possible, second I'm not exactly sure it would be fun either. It would be useful, that's for sure, but it wouldn't be fun.

+1 trade route at Trade?
Sending off one trade route at the beginning of the game and waiting the full length for minor returns is sorta meh. How about double?

This could probably work. Especially if Carthage gets their unique building changed, at that point trade-route boosting effects would be limited to just Venice.

I don't necessarily think the bonus have to be trade-based, I mean the Ottomans weren't exactly known as a trading powerhouse, they mostly controlled an area that was essential to ongoing trade and heavily taxed it, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

I don't necessarily think the bonus have to be trade-based, I mean the Ottomans weren't exactly known as a trading powerhouse, they mostly controlled an area that was essential to ongoing trade and heavily taxed it, if I'm not mistaken.

It's true, but you did say to "compliment the current UA," and I was already pretty biased towards helping their trade shine. Sure, it could be something else entirely, but then the synergy with the current Tanzimat wouldn't really be there.

 

[Funak]

It's true, but you did say to "compliment the current UA," and I was already pretty biased towards helping their trade shine. Sure, it could be something else entirely, but then the synergy with the current Tanzimat wouldn't really be there.

Not necessarily true, something like "tradingposts gains extra yields from roads and trade-routes" or "traderoutes adds +1 gold to each tile they move over (non-stacking)" would compliment the current ua without necessarily being tradethemed. Something like "Entering a new era triggers a Tanzimat" would fit the Tanzimat theme without having anything to do with trade.

There are definitely ways to do this.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

Not necessarily true, something like "tradingposts gains extra yields from roads and trade-routes" or "traderoutes adds +1 gold to each tile they move over (non-stacking)" would compliment the current ua without necessarily being tradethemed. Something like "Entering a new era triggers a Tanzimat" would fit the Tanzimat theme without having anything to do with trade.

There are definitely ways to do this.

I do like the +1 gold over tiles bit. A shame this could again be exploited like Arabia, so I think that would be out. Then again, this basically just pays for the roads... Hm... What do you think about it?

 

[Funak]

I do like the +1 gold over tiles bit. A shame this could again be exploited like Arabia, so I think that would be out. Then again, this basically just pays for the roads... Hm... What do you think about it?

My biggest problem with it is that it is a bit too frontloaded, extremely strong in the first two eras and then weaker as the game goes on. It's not exactly a game-breaking issue, but that's what I think. Unlike the Arabian one it wouldn't scale, and it wouldn't trigger off roads (I think), so route-manipulation would probably not be that big of an issue.
All in all it is probably a good backup if no one can think of anything better.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

My biggest problem with it is that it is a bit too frontloaded, extremely strong in the first two eras and then weaker as the game goes on. It's not exactly a game-breaking issue, but that's what I think. Unlike the Arabian one it wouldn't scale, and it wouldn't trigger off roads (I think), so route-manipulation would probably not be that big of an issue.
All in all it is probably a good backup if no one can think of anything better.

I think that by later in the game, the number of trade routes would allow for Tanzimat to shine better, and by that means, the gold fading in usefulness could even be ideal.