Ottoman

[randomnub]

I have a minor gripe about Ottomans AI: in my experience they always beeline Iron Working and Siege Foundry, usually building a lot of spearmen and trying for one or both of Halicarnassus/Statue of Zeus on the way there.
I don't think the +3 on the Foundry and the little science it could net at that stage (because they already built an army of spears and catapults are not unlocked) matches 2 earlier trade routes, possibly delaying Trade by ~40 turns and sailing by ~60, that's a lot of trade opportunities and instant yields missed, with archers+warriors being enough to fend off barbarian raiders.

Now it might be that I only notice them failing at early wonder-whoreing plus warmongering (two things that don't go well together not even for deity AI, when they lack Ancient hammers or UU) when they spawn as my neighbours, and in those cases it's actually a good option to build a military first because as a player I'd be pillaging their caravans while assaulting the wall-less cities should they focus on the top part of the tech tree, but it feels like they aren't playing at their strength in the first ~50 turns, and at least Trade should be given an harcoded higher priority.

 

[infidel88]

That's always problematic for civs who have their UB/UU on opposite sides of tree. In case of Otto we can say they have UA unlocked by trade.

While I support your case, I would also like to add that Ottos (and somehow also Portugal) should focus - maybe even hardcode - on Petra (if possible) and Colossus. As those wonders, behind usual numbers give them basically 6 or 6 scaling! Which is MASSIVE.

 

[randomnub]

Petra being unlocked at Trade is not a problem, if they beeline the tech as they should they will 100% pursuit it if they spawned on desert. Similarly Colossus, if the AI is taught to beeline the TR techs they'd end with an early Currency and from there Metal Casting comes naturally especially as Ottos. I just don't think, or I couldn't observe, that Ottomans AI properly focus on unlocking new trade routes asap.

 

[ChefGuevara]

So why was the production buff removed recently? Were they over performing?

 

[amateurgamer88]

So why was the production buff removed recently? Were they over performing?

The Production buff just makes them even more powerful since you can use it for Wonders and such. If you're not good at timing, then you can stagger those TR so that you can speed up Wonders. If you are good at it, you can even get ahead in WC projects like World's Fair. With their current kit, they are still quite powerful.

 

[ChefGuevara]

As long as they're not underperforming, I guess. I just figured that such a big hit would nerf them pretty hard.

 

[lunker]

The production boost was the most fun part of their kit and I'm very sad to see it go. I didn't think they were overperforming but if they were I think they should have taken the hit somewhere else.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

The production boost was the most fun part of their kit and I'm very sad to see it go. I didn't think they were overperforming but if they were I think they should have taken the hit somewhere else.

I think a nerf of the yields down from 150 to 100 would have done the job too, while being a bit smoother than the complete removal of the hammers. But they needed a nerf. If you were able to catch Petra and/or Colossus it was so game changing in early game that you could easily run away.

 

[Bromar1]

The production boost was the most fun part of their kit and I'm very sad to see it go. I didn't think they were overperforming but if they were I think they should have taken the hit somewhere else.

Yeah I wish that the science and culture would have been switched, so external routes give culture and prod instead of science and prod which makes it harder to snipe wonders

 

[pineappledan]

I think a nerf of the yields down from 150 to 100 would have done the job too, while being a bit smoother than the complete removal of the hammers. But they needed a nerf. If you were able to catch Petra and/or Colossus it was so game changing in early game that you could easily run away.

Combined with the instant boosts on ITR end that was implemented, Ottoman production boosts would have been even more out of hand. I don't think there's any going back.

I think there's a massive opportunity missed for Tanzimat to do 2 things that IRL Tanzimat was all about: Modernizing the country and promoting social cohesion among the disparate social/ethnic groups in the empire. There's already an instant boost on external TRs so that's great. I think internal TRs should also contribute to reducing empire uhappiness somehow.
Maybe the targets of Internal TRs have a flat -1 from all unhappiness reduction. Or maybe -X% from the Empire Size Needs modifier per internal TR.

 

[ChefGuevara]

I don’t know too much about the Tanzimat, but I think that would work pretty well. A happiness bonus wouldn’t be needed 100% of the time, but internal routes aren’t either.

 

[Zuizgond]

Not really related to balance but as you might want to complete TR as fast as possible, is there a way to sort the available TR by number of turns?

 

[Stalker0]

Not really related to balance but as you might want to complete TR as fast as possible, is there a way to sort the available TR by number of turns?

There is a modmod called UI - Filters in Trade Route Overview (Vox Populi) (v 2). One of my favorites, gives you a new screen where you can filter and sort on various TR criteria (including number of turns), and then with a click of a button it will assign the TR for you. Its amazing, highly recommend it.

 

[Zuizgond]

There is a modmod called UI - Filters in Trade Route Overview (Vox Populi) (v 2). One of my favorites, gives you a new screen where you can filter and sort on various TR criteria (including number of turns), and then with a click of a button it will assign the TR for you. Its amazing, highly recommend it.

Excellent, thanks!

 

[Noob Fanboy]

I didn't realize how strong is the Ottoman bonus on Medieval until finally facing them myself at this stage. I wasted most of my horses in Heavy Skirmishers, and now I need more knights to deal with the amount of Trebuchets they have. It's fine though

 

[Grassland Farm]

I can't help but feel the UA is a worse Portugal. You have the flexibility of choosing between science or culture, and can feed food to a capital, but for lower yields, the requirement for the route to be completed, and no GG/GA points

 

[pineappledan]

Ottomans having a weaker UA than Portugal seems warranted, because their uniques are stronger and more useful than Portugal's, IMO

 

[Stalker0]

I can't help but feel the UA is a worse Portugal. You have the flexibility of choosing between science or culture, and can feed food to a capital, but for lower yields, the requirement for the route to be completed, and no GG/GA points

Agreed, but the Ottomans have a good UB and a very nice UU. If I consider all 3 pieces together, I think the Ottomans are pretty solid.

 

[CrazyG]

Overall I'd agree that the Portugese UA is slightly better, but Feitoria are inconsistent while the Siege Foundry is excellent.

 

[stii]

Their UU is also amazing. I think having some overlap between different civs is inevitable. As long as they play a bit different it is fine.