Out-teching the AI

[ChesStrategy]

I used to love doing this (and thus attempted it alot) to AIs @ Noble difficulty and below by cottage spamming. Many 'pros' have said that prince and monarch are 'decently hard', but not 'extremely difficult' (as I feel it is). A question to those who beat prince and monarch frequently is...do you win by a huge margin in tech? Or is this wishful thinking, and usually (since the AI cheats), you guys do win on prince and monarch, but usually barely on par in terms of tech with the AIs or even behind in tech?

 

[r_rolo1]

I normally play in monarch ( some wins in emperor, but not enough to make the change ), and I find that it is not desirable to even try to beat the AI in every single tech, especially in the beggining of the game. In higher levels the AI have bonuses and you simply can't beat them in fair ground... best way is to research through a line and trade it with other civs( here knowing what each AI loves to tech helps ( for a example mansa loves to streamline to lib ( sometimes even bypasses CS... ) while Justinian normally derives to Guilds ). if you do it right, you can get a revenue 4 or 5 times bigger than the value of the tech.....

 

[Thanny]

It's very difficult to out-tech the AI on Monarch or above. As you say, they officially cheat. You need to have a much greater economy just to match them. Sometimes the only way to do that is wreck their economy while preserving yours.

Spamming cottages might do it, but I've not really tried that tact - you'd still need to maintain adequate defense to avoid being dogpiled in a war.

 

[mystyfly]

if you do it right, you can get a revenue 4 or 5 times bigger than the value of the tech.....

well that's one of the ideas the SE uses, and Cottages aren't that much help there.

It's very difficult to out-tech the AI on Monarch or above. As you say, they officially cheat. You need to have a much greater economy just to match them. Sometimes the only way to do that is wreck their economy while preserving yours.

Well, you just need to have about 2 times the land the AI has and/or attack/rex towards mansa, darius and friends.

In most of my Monarch games, it goes something like this: I'm lagging behind until I pop Philo and trade around. Then I try bulbing Paper, Edu and even Lib if I don't know Machinery (can turn out badly, having neighter Maces nor XBows...), then Moving up to Rifles, I keep my tech lead (usually 2-3 Techs to the second best). thats when I start taking out my neighbours..
I wouldn't say that I outtech them unless I go for any "soft" victory (for me those are culture, ss, diplo, time), when I DEFINITELY outtech them (simply b/c my huge empire.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Yeah, you can outtech them on Monarch using cottages. It's hard at first, but you get better as you play more games. At first I remember being angry at how ridiculously fast they were teching. First you need to trade. Even if it's a better deal for them, just trade. Any tech you can get that you don't have to research is an advantage for you .

You also need a tech path. A beeline to liberalism is good not just for the free tech, but because it lets you pick up a lot of techs that you can use to trade, it gives you a lot of techs that boost your research, (universities, free religion, free speech, and you're a short jump away from printing press). After the liberalism race, i usually stay ahead of the AI on monarch. If an AI manages to grab a large slice of land, and they're not an ultra aggressive civ, they might manage to keep up. But if it's a pretty violent continent with frequent skirmishes, forget about it, you'll be a tech lead.

Dealing with a civ with a high tech lead you have two options. Buddy up to them, get them to pleased or friendly and trade only with them, while you wage war with everybody else, or take them out before they manage to tech even more.

 

[Verge]

As others have mentioned, you will indeed have some trouble out-teching the AI when you're trying to master Prince and Monarch. I recall Prince being a bit of a hurdle for me when I first started out, but it really is just a matter of practice in order to get some experience and lessons under your belt. Eventually you'll find yourself having a comfortable lead in research once again, and you can consider moving up another level

 

[Wacky]

I normally play in monarch ( some wins in emperor, but not enough to make the change ), and I find that it is not desirable to even try to beat the AI in every single tech, especially in the beggining of the game. In higher levels the AI have bonuses and you simply can't beat them in fair ground... best way is to research through a line and trade it with other civs( here knowing what each AI loves to tech helps ( for a example mansa loves to streamline to lib ( sometimes even bypasses CS... ) while Justinian normally derives to Guilds ). if you do it right, you can get a revenue 4 or 5 times bigger than the value of the tech.....

Maybe a stupid question, butt is it a smart thing to trade guilds with Justinian considering its UU ? Most of the times I'm really careful with trading tech being scared giving the AI a advantage

 

[mystyfly]

Maybe a stupid question, butt is it a smart thing to trade guilds with Justinian considering its UU ? Most of the times I'm really careful with trading tech being scared giving the AI a advantage

Every tech you trade to the AI gives it an advantage. But as Justinian really is in love with his UU, I don't think it'll make that much of a difference if you trade it. Guilds is such a high priority, he'll get it early anyway. You'll want to be more careful trading techs that you have a monopoly (nobody else has) as the AI can't trade between themselves and techs that unlock Wonders you want to have a shot at - there's nothing more annoying than a Great Engineer that has been asleep for centuries who suddently wakes up and builds the SoL for some rival. Other techs are military techs. A rival you plan to attack soon or who is closeby shouldn't be given the opportunity to build stronger units.
Techs you safely may trade are those who have that "first" thingie: Techs that let you found a religion, that give you a Great Person and Liberalism (free Tech). The AI doesn't prioritise those techs after someone discovered them.

 

[MyOtherName]

well that's one of the ideas the SE uses, and Cottages aren't that much help there.

Cottages are plenty of help there...

 

[r_rolo1]

Maybe a stupid question, butt is it a smart thing to trade guilds with Justinian considering its UU ? Most of the times I'm really careful with trading tech being scared giving the AI a advantage

Exactly the oposite..... like mystyfly said, Justinian beelines hard for Guilds because of the UU, so the most likely is that he gets Guilds before you. What I meant was to research through other line ( like Engineering or Education ) and let him to trail his cherished Guilds beeline... and then get Feudalism ( if you don't have it already ) and Guilds by trade.

There are another small tricks that you should keep in mind regarding this, like the exagerated value that AI give to Divine right ( gives a good trading chip if you researched it ) even after all the wonders are exausted, the real paranoia that some civs got in until they found a religion ( like Isabella or Saladin... ),..... They help you to have educated guesses of what a particular AI will research and to plan accordingly.

 

[oPlaiD]

I've found in my recent games on Monarch I'm out-teching the AI quite a bit of the time taking advantage of some cottages.

I've started to attack neighbors a bit more often, like the last game as Mansa when I had to resort to a Skirmisher rush to take out Louis XIV because I had no early military resources, so I usually have a bit of a land advantage over other Civs.

Anyway, the last 5 or 6 games I've played I've taken over my whole continent by the time I have muskets and I find out that the other half of the world is hopelessly behind in techs.

I can attack the other continent with Cavalry against Longbows or Tanks against Muskets or Riflemen some of the time, so that's pretty sad.

Some games are a bit closer, but unless I have a really bad start I'll have a huge tech advantage around the start of my Industrial age.

What's the difficulty level where it becomes nearly impossible to maintain a tech lead? I'm definitely going to try out some higher level games soon.

 

[Minmaster]

the key is to research techs that the AIs don't have, even though you don't necessarily need them. it's always worth it to research that tech and sell it for a bunch of other techs than to research the one tech you desire for a particular reason. in the end, you end up getting more than your money's worth.

 

[BurN]

You can out-tech the AI on any difficulty, just depends how good you are in the game. Emperor, I always got a huge lead. Immortal, depends on the map/AI's. Deity, didn't win yet, let alone out-tech the ai.

And seriously, who's saying you need cottages? SE/SSE does the job as well. And who says you need war? Early land grab and turtle is enough.

 

[mystyfly]

What's the difficulty level where it becomes nearly impossible to maintain a tech lead? I'm definitely going to try out some higher level games soon.

Depends on your skills. But personally I find games I outtech the AI boring and I don't play until the end... Only did it once, my first ever Emperor game. Okay, going to space isn't my favourite victory but the circumstances made it the easiest. Fractal map -> got two continents. capture mine w/ rifles (vicky and sal), and tech to space b/c other continent was in constant war: Sitting bull, Hammuraby (RIP early 15th century iirc), Shaka, Ragnar. Needless to say they had hughe armies but no techs. Please, getting Education in 1900AD says that you did something wrong there..

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Just played my first emperor game. I outteched the AI, no problem. Things were pretty even up until liberalism (which i got), but after that I just took off.

 

[gettingfat]

It really depends on the AI combination you run into. Yesterday played a Monarch game. I had Ghenghis Khan and Suliesman on my continent. I was constantly being harrassed by Khan (his Keshiks are so annoying) and I had to build tons of units. Even I won the liberalism race, when I saw who were in the other continent, I said ...Fxxxk!!

Mansa, Willem, Pericles hugging each other having a tech party over there, with Willem going the Astronomy, constitution, democracy route, Mansa going the guild, banking, economy, corporation route. Pericles contributed here and there. I remembered Willem offered me constitution for scientific research. I refused because I just started researching physics. 5 or 6 turns later he won the physics race. Mansa took constitution from Willem and he won the communism race.

For some reason, Zulu was on that continent, only cautious with the other three, but never attacked.

One can't beat three!

 

[Gahbriel]

Every tech you trade to the AI gives it an advantage. But as Justinian really is in love with his UU, I don't think it'll make that much of a difference if you trade it. Guilds is such a high priority, he'll get it early anyway. You'll want to be more careful trading techs that you have a monopoly (nobody else has) as the AI can't trade between themselves and techs that unlock Wonders you want to have a shot at - there's nothing more annoying than a Great Engineer that has been asleep for centuries who suddently wakes up and builds the SoL for some rival. Other techs are military techs. A rival you plan to attack soon or who is closeby shouldn't be given the opportunity to build stronger units.
Techs you safely may trade are those who have that "first" thingie: Techs that let you found a religion, that give you a Great Person and Liberalism (free Tech). The AI doesn't prioritise those techs after someone discovered them.

Are u sure the AI doesnt trade? Ive never read it and from my experience, civs with contact with each other tend to have similar techs (for example, im most of my games i play with 3 continents. Besides mine, theres always one continent with civs much more advanced than in the other).

 

[mystyfly]

I assume you mean this:

... You'll want to be more careful trading techs that you have a monopoly (nobody else has) as the AI can't trade between themselves and techs that unlock Wonders you want to have a shot at - there's nothing more annoying than a Great Engineer that has been asleep for centuries who suddently wakes up and builds the SoL for some rival...

I think you missunderstood my sentence. I mean that techs you have a monopoly on you should keep as THOSE techs the AI can't trade between themselves. Just wait until another AI researches it or you can get a big prize out of it. An example of how much you can get by trading around philosophy, you can see in Unconquered Sun's Justinian's University: Defeating the Deities, check post #43.

 

[Still_Asleep]

I usually play 18 civ emporer, and I win the techrace in 90% of my games (the other 10% I lose altogether after 10 AIs declare war on the same turn...).

A Few things that might help:

Try to have at least 3-4 science cities, they should have access to at least 1 food ressource and a lot of grassland/floodplains. Cottage them early and almost entirely. A Few mines early to build the needed buildings, turn them into windmills later. They should all have library, university and academy as soon as possible.

After the initial workertechs, start researching aethics (unless you have a special strategy in mind, like praetorian rush). You will always be the first one to have it, and you can trade it around like mad (it has low priority for the AI). Now get polytheism and literature and build the great library in your capital. It is the only wonder I am addicted to, because it gives you mass Great-scientist points as well as a nice number of basic-beakers, that will receive the bonus from libs/unis/academies. In my last game, the science output of my capital went from 440 to 370 the turn the great library got obsolete.

After literature, beeline to civil service and use bureaucracy, your capital should be the first city to get an academy. Also try building oxford here later. From here on, you can directly go after liberalism, starting with paper. Might consider Sankore when you plan on keeping a religion and not using free religion, especially when you use AP-religion (in that scenario, monasteries give 2 , 2 , 2 and 10% ). Then education, immediately starting universities. You need to plan ahead on the numbers to get Oxford fast. Then philosophy if you cant trade for it and liberalism.

Generally, getting techs early that the AI will usually get late will lead to great trading opportunities. Just dont trade techs away when you plan on a wonder , and dont give important military stuff to your neighbours. And if you can choose, trade with the AIs that are further behind, not with techmonsters.

Also, try to run representation as early as possible, the beakers you receive from your specialists will also get the % from buildings and make a difference. But dont force the pyramids if you dont have stone, that may throw you behind.

Once you have the academies built in your science cities, every subsequent great scientist should settle in your capital.

At higher diffculties you will be way back in techs right as the game starts, and playing catch up. If you did it right, you will be slightly ahead at liberalism, and from here on the AI cant stop you. In my current game im doing 1900 / turn after 330 turns on epic, and Im playing with tanks vs riflemen

 

[Gahbriel]

I assume you mean this:

... You'll want to be more careful trading techs that you have a monopoly (nobody else has) as the AI can't trade between themselves and techs that unlock Wonders you want to have a shot at - there's nothing more annoying than a Great Engineer that has been asleep for centuries who suddently wakes up and builds the SoL for some rival...

I think you missunderstood my sentence. I mean that techs you have a monopoly on you should keep as THOSE techs the AI can't trade between themselves. Just wait until another AI researches it or you can get a big prize out of it. An example of how much you can get by trading around philosophy, you can see in Unconquered Sun's Justinian's University: Defeating the Deities, check post #43.

ahh ok, sorry