Akka
Moody old mage.
The only legitimacy Israël has comes from the UN, you know ?
And I wonder WHAT make these territories legitimate Israël property ?
Palistinian hypocracy
- Thread starter jkharvey
- Start date
The only legitimacy Israël has comes from the UN, you know ?
And I wonder WHAT make these territories legitimate Israël property ?
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
Actually, Israel was long legitimate before the United Nations...it was just the transition from Palestine to Israel in 1948 that made it "legitimate" to the modern world.
Also, if the state of Israel is legitimized by the United Nations, isn't it the responsibility of the United Nations to "keep the peace" in Israel, i.e. peacekeepers, or did the U.N. just set up the state so they'd have a scapegoat for when Arab states screw up?
Also, if the state of Israel is legitimized by the United Nations, isn't it the responsibility of the United Nations to "keep the peace" in Israel, i.e. peacekeepers, or did the U.N. just set up the state so they'd have a scapegoat for when Arab states screw up?
Akka
Moody old mage.
Israël doesn't want any peacekeeping force in the vicinity, AFAIK.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
That's because of the overwhelming anti-Israel bias in the United Nations.
you know, i used to be indiferent about the whole middle east problem - i just kind of figured that they were always fighting there, and it would go on like that forever - i didn't think it was right, but i just kind of always expected it to always be in the background - but the more i read, the more i realize the following things:
1) the palestinians must have some great public relations people - because all we keep hearing is about the "horrible israeli agression" - and unless you think about i, you might start to agree - but when you think about it, but why did the isrealis go in? because the palistinains started blowing up pubs/diners/etc - so then it pisses me off - hey palestinians - leave isreal the f*** alone - knock it off and they will not invade - and the idea that you have to give up land to get them to stop seems like extortion at the very least to me - think about it this way - if the canadians started crossing the boarder, and blowing up mcdonalds and movie theaters, do you think we would give up michigan to get them to stop? no - it wouldn't even be a consideration - did we give afganistan rhode island when they blew up the world trade center? did you even think of giving anything to them? we would bomb them back to the stone age - and in that respect i really think that israel is showing alot of self restraint
2) the rest of the arab world really doesn't like the palestinians - if they did why arn't they helping them? jordan/eygpt/suadi arabia/iraq are (geographically speaking) HUGE compaired to israel. why don't they give them some land? why is that never brought up in the talks? why don't they let them immigrate in? because they don't really like the palestinians, but they like israel even less - and they can use the palestinians to fight and (they hope) weaken israel - so they tolerate them, and economically/militarily/politically give them just enough support to keep the fight going, but do nothing meaningful to try and stop it
3) israel likes cheap labor - that is the only reason why israel does not kick them all out - because they don't want to do the jobs the palestinians will - and because they don't want to work for the pay the palestinians will - so israel can't just put up a berlin wall, and keep them all out - cheap labor and making money (at least on some level) are more important then their safety or some of their lives - so the palestinians have become a necessary evil for israel to to continue to function as it does
those are my thought for now - i am sure some will not agree with me - that is your right - and if i am wrong, let me know
1) the palestinians must have some great public relations people - because all we keep hearing is about the "horrible israeli agression" - and unless you think about i, you might start to agree - but when you think about it, but why did the isrealis go in? because the palistinains started blowing up pubs/diners/etc - so then it pisses me off - hey palestinians - leave isreal the f*** alone - knock it off and they will not invade - and the idea that you have to give up land to get them to stop seems like extortion at the very least to me - think about it this way - if the canadians started crossing the boarder, and blowing up mcdonalds and movie theaters, do you think we would give up michigan to get them to stop? no - it wouldn't even be a consideration - did we give afganistan rhode island when they blew up the world trade center? did you even think of giving anything to them? we would bomb them back to the stone age - and in that respect i really think that israel is showing alot of self restraint
2) the rest of the arab world really doesn't like the palestinians - if they did why arn't they helping them? jordan/eygpt/suadi arabia/iraq are (geographically speaking) HUGE compaired to israel. why don't they give them some land? why is that never brought up in the talks? why don't they let them immigrate in? because they don't really like the palestinians, but they like israel even less - and they can use the palestinians to fight and (they hope) weaken israel - so they tolerate them, and economically/militarily/politically give them just enough support to keep the fight going, but do nothing meaningful to try and stop it
3) israel likes cheap labor - that is the only reason why israel does not kick them all out - because they don't want to do the jobs the palestinians will - and because they don't want to work for the pay the palestinians will - so israel can't just put up a berlin wall, and keep them all out - cheap labor and making money (at least on some level) are more important then their safety or some of their lives - so the palestinians have become a necessary evil for israel to to continue to function as it does
those are my thought for now - i am sure some will not agree with me - that is your right - and if i am wrong, let me know
Greadius
:yeah:
I don't know if that is true... I'd have to refer to our local Israelites to confirm or deny that. I've gotten the impression that the Palestinians who are in the West Bank and Gaza aren't really in an intigrated economy and aren't working for Isreali's to any degree; if these people actually had jobs they might make something out of their lives.
And I've also gotten the impression that Israel WOULD kick them out if not for outside pressure/ massive hypocracy involved in doing so...
But I'm fairly certain the Palestinians are doing much more to hurt the Israeli economy than help it.
Switch625
I don't care.
Before the Intefadeh (sp?) started again, there were Palestinians who would travel to Israel proper to work. They were migrant workers in sort of the same way as Mexicans are to the border states. In times of relative calm, the Palestinians were a source of cheap labor. At this point, though, I can't imagine the Israelis thinking that labor pool is worth the trouble.
G-Man
A One Man's War
More like because if we'd kick them out we'll:
A. Commit a racsit act against Palestinians, which is something against all Israel's basic rules and ideas (democracy, equality, fighting racsim)
B. Give arab and muslim countries a good reason to start a war against us
C. Create huge international respons against us
D. Give Palestinians another excuse for their terrorism
"The only legitimacy Israël has comes from the UN, you know ?
And I wonder WHAT make these territories legitimate Israël property ?"
Show me one thing the UN has done for Israel. These territories are legitimate Israeli property because their former owners tried to destroy Israel, lost, and we took over. What makes any land legitimate property of the nation who is on it?
Akka
Moody old mage.
One thing that UN has done for Israël ? It allowed it to exist.
You DO know that UK agreed to give half of Palestine to Jews under a mandate of the UN, and without this decision, Israël would just NOT exist ?
And strenght and the ability to win a war does not make any territory claim legitimate.
Greadius
:yeah:
As far as I know, the United States doesn't have the UN's approval to exist... does that mean we are illegitimate?
A nation's existance has traditionally been partaken to recognition by other established nations. In those regards, Isreal was recognized by established nations irrigardless of the concurrent UN resolution.
Israel exists because of the hard work and sacrifices of the Jews that lived there before 1948, and those that fought in the war.
International recognition was an applausement of those achievements, not a means through which statehood was attained. The British mandate was more important in the development of an Israeli state than anything the United Nations has done.
Alcibiaties of Athenae
Imperator
This is an impossibilty, Simon.
The PLO attempted to overthrow the Jordian King in 1970, and after bitter fighting (including a small Syrian invasion) the PLO was evicted from Jordan forever.
This is also why Jordan lost interest in the west bank, because the ultra violent PLO attempted to set up a "state withen a state" in Jordan, and when expelled, went to Lebenon, where they managed to destroy a moderate semi-democratic government and start a bitter civil war in 1975.
This was why Israel launched opertion "Peace for Gallilee" in 82 in Lebenon, to stop the PLO from shelling Israel from Lebenon.
(they did this despite a UN force being inserted, after getting certain Russian built weapons systems).
Israel rejects a UN or EU force for the same reason, both have shown themselves to be anti-Israel and Pro-Palestinain, and the Israelis don't believe they would carry out their mission fairly.
They don't seem to object to a US force, however.
There is an example of a US buffer zone force (In Sinai) keeping the peace between Eygpt and Israel while they worked out their peace treaty.
(Israel also had settlers in Sinai, they were removed after Eygpt agreed to a real peace, some violently by the Israeli army, so West Bank settlements could also be dismantled if that is the course chosen)
The PLO is the real stumbling block to a lasting peace in the mid east, and it is what keeps Palestine from becoming a country, simply because Israel can't give in to terrorist blackmail, no matter how much the Pals deserve a country.
The PLO and it's terror arms such as Hammas must be destroyed.
The rest of the Arab world only gives lip service to anti-Israel retoric these days, I would bet they would accept Israel if the Palestinans had a country, and that the PLO knows this, so they continue to forment trouble, hoping to destablize the region and regain the Arab world's full military support against Israel.
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
I know, and agree wholeheartedly with your points.
What I was referring to was a scenario put forth by Professor Martin van Creveld, whereby the IDF forcibly expel the Palestinians over the border. None of the surrounding countries could do anything to stop such an operation; only the US.
This is indeed a drastic step, but my thinking is that it should be raised in order to show the drastic consequences of allowing terror to continue.
It is not fully realistic or probable, but realistic enough to prove the point.
I do concur 100% with your analysis of the PLO et al as hardline stumbling blocs to any true peace, and they must be removed from the equation.
Whether that is done through their destruction, as I advocate, or through "them being sidelined by political concessions" (the measured opinion of one rather post modernist, liberal, Said and Chomsky loving doctor I have dealings with at uni...
) it needs to be done.
Benny Morris and all the other "New Historians" including Tom Segev and Ilan Pappe and Avi Shlaim and all the rest of the "New History" band crap.
New History as new garbage.
http://www.meforum.org/meq/june96/karsh.shtml
http://www.meforum.org/meq/march99/benny.shtml
Efraim Karsh is a genious
New History as new garbage.
http://www.meforum.org/meq/june96/karsh.shtml
http://www.meforum.org/meq/march99/benny.shtml
Efraim Karsh is a genious
jkharvey
Chieftain
What really pissed me off is what the Palestinians did to the Church of the Nativity. Could you imagine what would have happend if a bunch of Christians and Jews had done the same thing in the Mosque in Mecca or Medina?
I was wondering...is there anyway to revoke a Nobel Peace Prize??
By the way a couple of very nice posts AofA and Simon.
I was wondering...is there anyway to revoke a Nobel Peace Prize??
By the way a couple of very nice posts AofA and Simon.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
The Nobel prize is a joke now...
When they gave it to people like Lech Walesa (Polish Solidarity), that's when it counted. I mean, they gave one to Kofi Annan of all people -- what did he do to stop violence? Did the U.N. liberate Afghanistan? Uh, nooo...
When they gave it to people like Lech Walesa (Polish Solidarity), that's when it counted. I mean, they gave one to Kofi Annan of all people -- what did he do to stop violence? Did the U.N. liberate Afghanistan? Uh, nooo...
G-Man
A One Man's War
When I asked what the UN has done I ment 'done' as in deeds, not as in talking. When the UN decided Israel would exist, whay has it really done? Did they end troops to help it defend itself? Did they send supplies in order to allow the jews to have a normal diet? No! Israel exists for a single reason, and that's because we won and the arabs lost. If the UN would give the entire country to the arabs, what do you think would've happened? The arabs would've attacked the jews, and the jews would've fought back. Isn't it just what happened in real life?
"I mean, they gave one to Kofi Annan of all people -- what did he do to stop violence? Did the U.N. liberate Afghanistan? Uh, nooo..."
You're forgetting his orgenization acts for peace, such as hiding evidences against terrorists, allowing terrorists to use their posts and making a news conference with the head of terrorists when at the same time his people bomb civilians in villages. And all this things just in south Lebanon.
germanos
King
IMO jews and arabs lived together for many many years, if not millennia, all that time before.
Better still: there are arabs living peacefully in Israel, as there are jews living peacefully in arab and muslim countries as well.
DON'T SAY ARABS AND JEWS MUST KILL EACHOTHER BY SOME NATURAL LAW.
