Pantheons - Second Edition

[Enrico Swagolo]

Based on thoughts outlined above, here's my current minimalist attempt to address some imbalances:

Stars and Sky would still be overpowered. Its main problem is too much culture and production, Faith is a problem but not as important. Tundra starts make this one broken. You will become the best at culture, able to build everything just with a few Tundra camps (which there's always an abundance of in Communitas) and the undisputed god of faith. Nobody can keep up with you. The game becomes too easy as you are 2 policies ahead of almost everyone at emperor, build everything very fast and enhance at a similar time as the Maya do.

4-5 upgradeable improvements in Tundra happen all the time in all places in Communitas map script, and Tundras are big. You are essentially making several of your cities have the capital benefits of pre-most-of-the-nerfs God of Creation with more faith and lots of production at the cost of no happiness.

Also if you just nerf the faith to 1, most of the times they'll found a religion anyway (while still keeping the OP game-winning Culture/Production) because all they need to do is research Hunting and get 4-5 faith on top of 8-10 production/culture in the capital, then they settle another city and get that another time, and another.
It'd be better if Stars and Sky would be 2 Faith 1 Prod 1 C with perhaps 1 Gold/Food added in if it's too weak (it won't be though). I suggest this value because that's how I've been playing for a long time with my changes and it's fine - you get some awesome culture/production sweetener while still being beyond awesome at faith, but you fall off with time (as pantheons of this sort should).

God-King is overnerfed IMHO, not sure if it needed to be hit so hard.

Besides that I'm very liking your Craftsmen idea (resources not granting faith is cool and makes it different from God Earth) and all the other changes are fine with me.

 

[Gidoza]

Wisdom - increased ratio to 15 (was 10), increased City bonus to +1 Science +2 Faith

+2 Faith in every city is wayyy too overpowered - guaranteed Religion. One needs a completely different way of getting Faith if this isn't going to outperform all the other Pantheons.

God King - increased ratio to 8 (Was 6)

Don't think this was needed - at least I won't be inclined to pick it.

Open Sky - shifted ratio to 1c per 2 (Was per 3)

Okay.

Craftsmen - Cities with specialists yield +3 Faith, Quarries/Stone Works yield gold/production

While aiming for a specialist in each city might slow city growth down a bit, this will definitely make getting a Religion easy.

Commerce - ratio now 30, connection now +3/+2 (was +2/+2)

The problem wasn't the ratio - the problem was that +2 Faith in cities with a city connection generates too much early an instant Faith - again, like Wisdom, we're offering an easy Religion out of this one.


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I haven't commented on all your changes...but my honest assessment of this is that it will plough an even wider gap between different Pantheons and make some picks (like Earth Mother, for example) even less desirable than they already are, creating even more imbalance. This is precisely what I've been trying to avoid and polish away...

 

[Funak]

Ancestor Worship - reduced ratio to 3 (was 4), Council now +2 culture (was +1)

I assume the faith from the Council is gone, in that case I'm fine with that.

Beauty - reduced Faith to +2 (Was +3)

I really don't see why this would be too strong, but then again I don't really pick it. In 90% of the cases it's a worse version of God of All Creation.

Wisdom - increased ratio to 15 (was 10), increased City bonus to +1 Science +2 Faith

This could be fine, although I'm not exactly sure on getting 2 faith without any work, seems a bit strong. Maybe the current version is just fine after all?

Stars and Sky - reduced Faith to 1 (was 2)

I don't pick them enough to have a solid opinion on this, but I really don't think they were that strong.

God King - increased ratio to 8 (Was 6)

Again, only real motivation behind this getting nerfed I've actually seen is that it outperforms Ancestor Worship. With AW buffed I don't really see why this would get reduced, it's not exactly star material in the first place.

Open Sky - shifted ratio to 1c per 2 (Was per 3)

definitely needed

Craftsmen - Cities with specialists yield +3 Faith, Quarries/Stone Works yield gold/production

Might work, but relying that heavily on markets(and on picking tradition) for faith makes the pantheon feel week.

Commerce - ratio now 30, connection now +3/+2 (was +2/+2)

Honestly, the existing ratio never really blew up the same way that Wisdom does, gold doesn't become that common-place in the mid-late game. I mean you have enough gold to get your stuff done, but that's not exactly from flat income.

Also not really sure what you mean with +3/+2, since you never specified which yield was first.

 

[Funak]

Stars and Sky would still be overpowered. Its main problem is too much culture and production, Faith is a problem but not as important. Tundra starts make this one broken. You will become the best at culture, able to build everything just with a few Tundra camps (which there's always an abundance of in Communitas) and the undisputed god of faith. Nobody can keep up with you. The game becomes too easy as you are 2 policies ahead of almost everyone at emperor, build everything very fast and enhance at a similar time as the Maya do.

4-5 upgradeable improvements in Tundra happen all the time in all places in Communitas map script, and Tundras are big. You are essentially making several of your cities have the capital benefits of pre-most-of-the-nerfs God of Creation with more faith and lots of production at the cost of no happiness.

Just wondering, but you never actually considered that maybe it's your mapscript that is the problem?
I mean I have seen some tundra-areas where I could fit 12 improvements into 3 cities, but those are extremely rare, most of the time the tundra got like 2 or 3 resources maximum.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Just wondering, but you never actually considered that maybe it's your mapscript that is the problem?
I mean I have seen some tundra-areas where I could fit 12 improvements into 3 cities, but those are extremely rare, most of the time the tundra got like 2 or 3 resources maximum.

I play with Communitas mapscript. While it is generous, the Fox Porcupine mod comes with it, and so standard Communitas mapscript is the default one for the Faux Paw-puller mod. You get 3-4 improvable stuff on Tundra on average (that's considering the fact there's tiny, 1 tile dots of Plains inside Tundras for some reason, half of them containing Deer/Foxes) and, on Large, between 2 (least generous) to 5 decent city locations. Sometimes 10 cities even when the script decides to cover half of the map with Tundra.

Anyway, even at your 2-3 resources you are getting 4-6 faith/production/culture per city which is usually hidden behind the mere Hunting tech. No other pantheon even begins to compare to that which I'm sure you'll agree with (okay I guess except some mountain ranges and nature god).

The moment you get your second city up and running, that's way more culture/faith than God of Creation which half of the people complain about, and you also get huge production. I bet you'll get even more once Iron is discovered - Tundras seem to attract Iron for some reason.

 

[Funak]

I play with Communitas mapscript. While it is generous, the Fox Porcupine mod comes with it, and so standard Communitas mapscript is the default one for the Faux Paw-puller mod. You get 3-4 improvable stuff on Tundra on average (that's considering the fact there's tiny, 1 tile dots of Plains inside Tundras for some reason, half of them containing Deer/Foxes) and, on Large, between 2 (least generous) to 5 decent city locations. Sometimes 10 cities even when the script decides to cover half of the map with Tundra.

Anyway, even at your 2-3 resources you are getting 4-6 faith/production/culture per city which is usually hidden behind the mere Hunting tech. No other pantheon even begins to compare to that which I'm sure you'll agree with (okay I guess except some mountain ranges and nature god).

The moment you get your second city up and running, that's way more culture/faith than God of Creation which half of the people complain about, and you also get huge production. I bet you'll get even more once Iron is discovered - Tundras seem to attract Iron for some reason.

I meant a total of 2-3 resources, actually. And no Communitas mapscript is not considered default for anything. It was included because someone asked G to update it.

 

[Stalker0]

My take:

Pantheons:

•Ancestor Worship - reduced ratio to 3 (was 4), Council now +2 culture (was +1)
Agreed with Funak, I don't think the council faith is needed anymore. +2 culture per city is quite solid to me.

• Beauty - reduced Faith to +2 (Was +3)
I don't see a need to change this one, its not nearly as good as a lot of people think it is imo.

• God King - increased ratio to 8 (Was 6)
Also think this is an overnerf.

• Open Sky - shifted ratio to 1c per 2 (Was per 3)
Is there any way to take out the restriction of grassland vs plains? Can it just be any combination of those tiles?

As a note, just to put this one in context, you would have to work 4 plains tiles for every city you own to match the culture of the updated Ancestor Worship....that just shows you how much it takes to be competitive even with this change.

• Craftsmen - Cities with specialists yield +3 Faith, Quarries/Stone Works yield gold/production
Funak mentioned the concern that it only works with Tradition, even if that is true that is perfectly fine to me. Its not like tradition is a rare condition, and you already know your going tradition when you pick your pantheon.

I like how its much more distinct than earth mother, certainly willing to give it a try. I think this one is likely going to be one of the best at snagging an early religion for a tradition policy player.

• Commerce - ratio now 30, connection now +3/+2 (was +2/+2)
I think the main concern was not the ratio but the connection bonus, so I think we are changing the wrong thing.


I think God of all Creation still has to make this list, I think its still one of the top dogs.

 

[Forsti]

Based on thoughts outlined above, here's my current minimalist attempt to address some imbalances:

Looking at your list, I'm quite surprised. The biggest surprise is the absence of Goddess of Festivals, which I consider a no-brainer choice most of the time. When I tried it after it's buff, I got 18 faith, culture and gold on turn 90 from it (standard speed, continents). That is something beyond broken and only Spirit of the Desert and God of the Stars and Sky can occasionally match it. The latter of those is getting a deserved nerf and I would have liked to see the desert pantheon receiving one too, since I consider desert starts a lot better than tundra starts.

I also don't understand the buff of God of Commerce. I consider it a buff, since the starting yields are what makes it great and the scaler is quite meaningless.

Looking at the pantheons that are getting nerfed, I really don't understand why God-King and Beauty are included. As God-King no longer gives you yields from other civilizations following your religion, I wouldn't ever consider choosing it even with the current scaling (even if Festivals, All Creation etc. were removed). It now has crappy yields at the start but it never gets strong. Beauty is completely eclipsed by other pantheons already as you'd only want to choose it if you're planning to hoard several pantheons, but in order to do so you need as much culture as possible. Therefore, you get a better chance to get the wonders you want and also better yields overall by choosing a pantheon that grants you more culture, namely Festivals, All Creation or situationally Stars and Sky.

I've also said this several times before but it can't be stated too often. Something needs to be done about God of All Creation as the only pantheon preventing me from choosing it more or less always is Goddess of Festivals, which I'd choose more or less always if I hadn't banned me from choosing it.

 

[Gazebo]

I've been running tests of my own and I'm actually happy with the current setup, barring a few smaller changes.

Revision:

• Ancestor Worship - reduced ratio to 3 (was 4), Council now +2 culture (was +1) and no faith
• Beauty - reduced Faith to +2 (Was +3)
• Wisdom - increased ratio to 15 (was 10), increased City bonus to +1 Science +2 Faith
• Stars and Sky - reduced Faith to 1 (was 2)
• God King - no change
• Open Sky - shifted ratio to 1c per 2 (Was per 3)
• Craftsmen - Cities with specialists yield +3 Faith, Quarries/Stone Works yield gold/production
• Commerce - ratio now 30, connection now +3f/+2g (was +2f/+2g)
• Creation (forgot to list this one) Palace faith now +2, was +3.

I'll look at Festivals.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Looking at your list, I'm quite surprised. The biggest surprise is the absence of Goddess of Festivals, which I consider a no-brainer choice most of the time. When I tried it after it's buff, I got 18 faith, culture and gold on turn 90 from it (standard speed, continents). That is something beyond broken and only Spirit of the Desert and God of the Stars and Sky can occasionally match it. The latter of those is getting a deserved nerf and I would have liked to see the desert pantheon receiving one too, since I consider desert starts a lot better than tundra starts.

I also don't understand the buff of God of Commerce. I consider it a buff, since the starting yields are what makes it great and the scaler is quite meaningless.

Looking at the pantheons that are getting nerfed, I really don't understand why God-King and Beauty are included. As God-King no longer gives you yields from other civilizations following your religion, I wouldn't ever consider choosing it even with the current scaling (even if Festivals, All Creation etc. were removed). It now has crappy yields at the start but it never gets strong. Beauty is completely eclipsed by other pantheons already as you'd only want to choose it if you're planning to hoard several pantheons, but in order to do so you need as much culture as possible. Therefore, you get a better chance to get the wonders you want and also better yields overall by choosing a pantheon that grants you more culture, namely Festivals, All Creation or situationally Stars and Sky.

I've also said this several times before but it can't be stated too often. Something needs to be done about God of All Creation as the only pantheon preventing me from choosing it more or less always is Goddess of Festivals, which I'd choose more or less always if I hadn't banned me from choosing it.

Agreed about Beauty and God-King, but God-King is not really bad. It scales very well with the likes of Aztecs (in the current version it's nuts broken with them, even - 20 pop in every bigger city before medieval is easily achievable), but you need to get Stonehenge if you take it.

 

[Gidoza]

(from Funak)

Commerce - ratio now 30, connection now +3/+2 (was +2/+2)
Honestly, the existing ratio never really blew up the same way that Wisdom does, gold doesn't become that common-place in the mid-late game. I mean you have enough gold to get your stuff done, but that's not exactly from flat income.

(from Gazebo)

Commerce - ratio now 30, connection now +3f/+2g (was +2f/+2g)

Need to agree with Funak, but the discussion was about more than that. Nobody contested how much Faith was generated from gold at a ratio of 20, that was fine: the issue was that too much Faith was generated from the City Connection at 2 Faith, and that was too much. And now you're make it stronger??? So you nerfed the half that didn't have a balance problem, and buffed the part that was already too strong?

As for Beauty - the complaint there that people offered was that it didn't have strong enough buffs to the *Civ* (like Culture or Gold), but that the Faith was quite strong from having a single Wonder.

Sorry, don't get where this is coming from. This isn't what I labored for.

 

[Funak]

(from Funak)

(from Gazebo)

Need to agree with Funak, but the discussion was about more than that. Nobody contested how much Faith was generated from gold at a ratio of 20, that was fine: the issue was that too much Faith was generated from the City Connection at 2 Faith, and that was too much. And now you're make it stronger??? So you nerfed the half that didn't have a balance problem, and buffed the part that was already too strong?

Have anyone actually been complaining about the City-connections? I think the ability is perfectly fine as it is. It is strong, for sure, but with city-connections being as expensive as they are these days it's definitely not a nobrainer.

Sorry, don't get where this is coming from. This isn't what I labored for.

To be fair, you suggested adding the vanilla Dance of the aurora(which, may I remind you was removed because it was out of this world overpowered) on top of the current god of stars and skies.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Have anyone actually been complaining about the City-connections? I think the ability is perfectly fine as it is. It is strong, for sure, but with city-connections being as expensive as they are these days it's definitely not a nobrainer.

Well, the 4 (and usually 5, because by that time you likely get 20g) faith as soon as you get a city connection is good.

But the pantheon itself is not overpowering currently I think, in fact I think it's mid-tier at best. AI loves that one - they take it pretty much every game - but I rarely am tempted by it. The pantheons that provide Culture almost all beat it in the majority of cases (unless it's related to an improvement you can't get of course). It provides a very strong start though if you get a connection fast, but you pick a pantheon pretty early most of the cases... How many turns will it even take you to build the necessary road between your cities? Unless you're Carthage that is, Carthage will probably get like 5 Faith from the pantheon as soon as they settle the second city.

Anyway, outside of Carthage, by the 4-6 tile road time even weak improve-stuff pantheons will usually have upgraded two resources. Not to mention it means you must send your early worker(s?) to build roads instead of improvements.

 

[Gazebo]

(from Funak)

(from Gazebo)

Need to agree with Funak, but the discussion was about more than that. Nobody contested how much Faith was generated from gold at a ratio of 20, that was fine: the issue was that too much Faith was generated from the City Connection at 2 Faith, and that was too much. And now you're make it stronger??? So you nerfed the half that didn't have a balance problem, and buffed the part that was already too strong?

As for Beauty - the complaint there that people offered was that it didn't have strong enough buffs to the *Civ* (like Culture or Gold), but that the Faith was quite strong from having a single Wonder.

Sorry, don't get where this is coming from. This isn't what I labored for.

City connections are a big investment early. I don't see the problem with rewarding that. In general GPT and City connections are actually counterproductive, as they're so expensive.

Beauty + any Ancient wonder was too easy of a Religion game. Wonders already stronger. 3/6/9 faith from them in first 100 turns was too good.

G

 

[Funak]

Well, the 4 (and usually 5, because by that time you likely get 20g) faith as soon as you get a city connection is good.

Well, unless you're settling cities on top of each-other you're going to be paying road-maintenance that is probably sapping most of the gold you get from the pantheon (meaning it's probably harder to reach +20gpt with the pantheon than without it). But early game gold generation is way too RNG-dependent that it's hardly worth speculating on.

But the pantheon itself is not overpowering currently I think, in fact I think it's mid-tier at best. AI loves that one - they take it pretty much every game - but I rarely am tempted by it. The pantheons that provide Culture almost all beat it in the majority of cases (unless it's related to an improvement you can't get of course). It provides a very strong start though if you get a connection fast, but you pick a pantheon pretty early most of the cases... How many turns will it even take you to build the necessary road between your cities? Unless you're Carthage that is, Carthage will probably get like 5 Faith from the pantheon as soon as they settle the second city.

Anyway, outside of Carthage, by the 4-6 tile road time even weak improve-stuff pantheons will usually have upgraded two resources. Not to mention it means you must send your early worker(s?) to build roads instead of improvements.

Carthage is a completely different beast, their free connections along with massive +1 gold per tile worked means they are definitely going to reach 20, 40 or even 60 gpt.


Don't get me wrong I like Commerce and I think it got a nice mixture between early-game and scaling, but I'm somewhat on the fence if it is actually overpowered.

Earlygame culture is kinda snowbally, that is a fact. This makes God of the Sun and Goddess of Springtime really powerful.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Well, unless you're settling cities on top of each-other you're going to be paying road-maintenance that is probably sapping most of the gold you get from the pantheon (meaning it's probably harder to reach +20gpt with the pantheon than without it). But early game gold generation is way too RNG-dependent that it's hardly worth speculating on.



Carthage is a completely different beast, their free connections along with massive +1 gold per tile worked means they are definitely going to reach 20, 40 or even 60 gpt.


Don't get me wrong I like Commerce and I think it got a nice mixture between early-game and scaling, but I'm somewhat on the fence if it is actually overpowered.

Earlygame culture is kinda snowbally, that is a fact. This makes God of the Sun and Goddess of Springtime really powerful.

No, you don't understand how the pantheon works (or at least worked the last time I used it - feel free to correct me if that was changed). You don't need 20 GPT - you need your cities to generate +20 Gold among them, but you don't consider any maintenance. Basically +20, any - doesn't count.

Basically, if Warsaw works citizens worth 12 gold and Krakow works citizens worth 10 Gold, you get +1Faith. It doesn't matter that your GPT is -50 because you've built 25 Warriors, you generate +20 Gold and get 1 Faith.


About early game culture, yeah. Especially God of the Sun/Stars and Sky though - Springtime limits itself with its requirement to work plantations (and half of them are under jungles/forests, so research is needed...). Some generous Wheat starts really make me covered in Wheat culture.

 

[Funak]

No, you don't understand how the pantheon works (or at least worked the last time I used it - feel free to correct me if that was changed). You don't need 20 GPT - you need your cities to generate +20 Gold among them, but you don't consider any maintenance. Basically +20, any - doesn't count.

Basically, if Warsaw works citizens worth 12 gold and Krakow works citizens worth 10 Gold, you get +1Faith. It doesn't matter that your GPT is -50 because you've built 25 Warriors, you generate +20 Gold and get 1 Faith.

Are you absolutely sure about that? I've picking the pantheon like 100s of matches and I don't think I've ever seen that.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Are you absolutely sure about that? I've picking the pantheon like 100s of matches and I don't think I've ever seen that.

It worked like that the last time I picked it at least. Did you check your Faith bonus?

Spoiler :

My game with this pantheon was several months ago though, maybe it was changed. I will check it out again in the next version

 

[Gazebo]

No, you don't understand how the pantheon works (or at least worked the last time I used it - feel free to correct me if that was changed). You don't need 20 GPT - you need your cities to generate +20 Gold among them, but you don't consider any maintenance. Basically +20, any - doesn't count.

Basically, if Warsaw works citizens worth 12 gold and Krakow works citizens worth 10 Gold, you get +1Faith. It doesn't matter that your GPT is -50 because you've built 25 Warriors, you generate +20 Gold and get 1 Faith.


About early game culture, yeah. Especially God of the Sun/Stars and Sky though - Springtime limits itself with its requirement to work plantations (and half of them are under jungles/forests, so research is needed...). Some generous Wheat starts really make me covered in Wheat culture.

Ah yeah forgot I changed that. So it isn't GPT, but raw gold output, yep.

 

[ExpiredReign]

I play with Communitas mapscript. While it is generous, the Fox Porcupine mod comes with it, and so standard Communitas mapscript is the default one for the Faux Paw-puller mod. <snip>

I meant a total of 2-3 resources, actually. And no Communitas mapscript is not considered default for anything. It was included because someone asked G to update it.

@Funak is 'right on the money here'. The resource placement in the current Communitas script is not to be used as a basis for changes in pantheons, policies or anything else for that matter.
However I have restored the code to vanilla values and new releases of VP should have the new script, in which case it will be as useful as any vanilla script.

As for any mods that rely on Communitas, you'll need to ensure no conflicts with the scripts, VP's or the other mod.