Papal Primacy mislabeled

[playshogi]

Papal Primacy is called a founder belief when it is actually an enhancer belief. Each envoy sent adds 200 pressure. Every other founder belief increases a yield in some way. Exactly what benefit do you get if a city-state follows your religion? None, as far as I can see, except it helps in spreading your religion further, again acting as an enhancer. The only "benefit" is making it slightly easier to get the envoy from a religious conversion mission. Prior to R+F, this belief increased city-state yields by 50%. To make Papal Primacy a fun belief they need to restore the original benefit AND keep the current benefit.

If PP were properly labeled, you could have PP and tithe and gain a benefit from a city-state following the religion.

 

[Amrunril]

Mislabeled isn't the term I would use, since it really does take up a founder belief slot. I do think it would make a lot more sense as an enhancer belief, though, as I really can't imagine a circumstance where I'd want to choose it in its current form. There's not much point in taking a belief that helps you spread your religion a bit better if it requires you to sacrifice the belief slot that actually gives you a reward for spreading your religion.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

I only use it when I play Georgia since you want to convert (and keep suzeranity) of city states.

 

[Minou]

Not sure I understand what trade routes have to do with it?

 

[kryat]

I wonder if it’s because Papal Primacy used to affect envoy bonuses.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

I agree. Arabia and Georgia are the only two civs that would ever choose this belief, because they are the only two civs that benefit from spreading their religion without a real founder belief.

Founder beliefs reward you for spreading your religion. Enhancer beliefs make it easier to spread your religion. This is true for all beliefs except three. Papal Primacy is one, but the other two are Crusade and Defender of the Faith, which gives your military units extra combat strength when near cities that have been converted to your religion. Since these beliefs reward you for spreading your religion, they are more like Founder Beliefs than Enhancer beliefs.

Merely switching Papal Primacy and Crusade would solve most of the problem. Defender of the Faith should have it's effect changed to something else. Maybe, "Whenever your military units kill an enemy unit, they spread your religion to nearby cities," like the Warrior Monk promotion.

 

[Depravo]

Papal Primacy synergises very nicely if you're Hungary and have a religion. It becomes a kind of religious death ray. Chuck in Apadana and it's comical.

 

[leandrombraz]

I only use it when I play Georgia since you want to convert (and keep suzeranity) of city states.

Religious Unit is a better option as Georgia. When you convert a CS, Georgia's ability trigger with Religious Unit and give you 2 envoys. If a CS has a quest to convert it, you can get 4 envoys at once, just for doing it.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Papal Primacy synergises very nicely if you're Hungary and have a religion. It becomes a kind of religious death ray. Chuck in Apadana and it's comical.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. So you levy troops from a city-state, you get two free envoys from your leader ability, you get some free religious pressure in that one city-state only from Papal Primacy and… then what? How does that help you?

 

[Depravo]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. So you levy troops from a city-state, you get two free envoys from your leader ability, you get some free religious pressure in that one city-state only from Papal Primacy and… then what? How does that help you?

Well, it's not going to win you the game by itself but it's a good way of getting your religion entrenched in remote parts of the map.

 

[playshogi]

Well, it's not going to win you the game by itself but it's a good way of getting your religion entrenched in remote parts of the map.

That makes it an enhancer belief.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Well, it's not going to win you the game by itself but it's a good way of getting your religion entrenched in remote parts of the map.

But why? Why entrench your religion in remote parts of the map if your religion isn't actually doing anything to benefit you?

 

[Depravo]

But why? Why entrench your religion in remote parts of the map if your religion isn't actually doing anything to benefit you?

Yes, it would be better redone as an enhancer belief. All I'm saying was it worked pretty well for me as Hungary in the last game through denying a large part of the map to my main religious competitor. PP and CS conversion quests snowballed me into a religious and diplomatic powerhouse.

It's situational, obviously.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

All I'm saying was it worked pretty well for me as Hungary in the last game through denying a large part of the map to my main religious competitor.

Passive spread is so weak, if your competitor didn't send a wave of missionaries to undo all the progress you had made with Papal Primacy, then they were never serious about winning a religious victory.

But I will admit that using it as a way to complete city-state conversion quests is a (very narrow) use case for the belief in its current form.