Paradise Lost

[Akulya]

Firstly let me say how much I admire the creative work of all involved in the FFH community. It is therefore without criticism that I would like to bring into the Lore forum the epic work "Paradise Lost" by John Milton; which must be a great influence to writers of theological fantasy - even if only as an uncited secondary source.

Of course every author writes his own story, so I mean to bring no accusations. Only open chit chat; and if as a side product some are drawn to fully read Paradise Lost, then bravo.

A quick search of the fora (for PL) returned no results, and with the parallel theme, i.e. the fall from heaven, I felt that a discussion on how personalities, events and even wordplay has found a place in FFH canon.

I'll start with a quote from the close of Book 1

"Thus incorporeal Spirits to smallest forms
Reduced their shapes immense, and were at large,
Though without number still, amidst the hall
Of that infernal court. But far within,
And in their own dimensions like themselves,
The great Seraphic Lords and Cherubim
In close recess and secret conclave sat,
A thousand demi-gods on golden seats,
Frequent and full. After short silence then,
And summons read, the great consult began."

 

[Jabie]

In one of the pieces I wrote for the modmods (i.e. non-canon), there was a reference to Guilliame the Blacke, a poet who keeps muttering about Tygers and the forests of the night. Later on he gets ambushed in act of fearful symmetry. (Link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8124629&postcount=174)

 

[cypher132]

Firstly let me say how much I admire the creative work of all involved in the FFH community. It is therefore without criticism that I would like to bring into the Lore forum the epic work "Paradise Lost" by John Milton; which must be a great influence to writers of theological fantasy - even if only as an uncited secondary source.

Of course every author writes his own story, so I mean to bring no accusations. Only open chit chat; and if as a side product some are drawn to fully read Paradise Lost, then bravo.

A quick search of the fora (for PL) returned no results, and with the parallel theme, i.e. the fall from heaven, I felt that a discussion on how personalities, events and even wordplay has found a place in FFH canon.

I'll start with a quote from the close of Book 1

"Thus incorporeal Spirits to smallest forms
Reduced their shapes immense, and were at large,
Though without number still, amidst the hall
Of that infernal court. But far within,
And in their own dimensions like themselves,
The great Seraphic Lords and Cherubim
In close recess and secret conclave sat,
A thousand demi-gods on golden seats,
Frequent and full. After short silence then,
And summons read, the great consult began."

I tried to understand that, really I did. Can you type that out in a way a stoner would understand it, please?

 

[Akulya]

I tried to understand that, really I did. Can you type that out in a way a stoner would understand it, please?

Sure,

Paradise Lost is an epic poem, (see link in OP) in the style of Homer and Virgil.
i.e. it tells an "epic" story, and it doesn't rhyme - but IS a poem and should be read as such.


It's central theme of the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Eden.

But thats a very crude pidegonhole, as it really doesn't get to that until until the 9th book (of 12), and more importantly, that's not even the actual point.

Really, it's about Gods and Men and war, and the right to choose.

It is not a piece of christian propaganda either (although written by a puritan circa 1650.) The players are described fully - Mammon, Belial, Moloch, Satan, to name a few on the one hand;
God, Uriel, Gabriel, Michael etc. on another. With flaws and strengths both. God is tyrannical, Mammon embraces the fall so as to easier find buried gold, Satan truly believes his rebellion is justified, and in defiance falls to his own pride.

I began this thread with the intent of gauging how FFH loremasters find similarities between this very old poem and what contemporary sources churn up. Even if people have even read or heard of it?

It is afterall a work of fantasy fiction much like any other, but the reason I find PL applicable to FFH more so than say LOTR, is the ideological theme, sure there are orks and goblins and elves...

But it's really men (all subtypes) and gods (all divine ranks) at war.

I would again like to thank everyone who participates in creative writing, because it is you who all make this possible.

 

[cypher132]

Sure,

Paradise Lost is an epic poem, (see link in OP) in the style of Homer and Virgil.
i.e. it tells an "epic" story, and it doesn't rhyme - but IS a poem and should be read as such.


It's central theme of the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Eden.

But thats a very crude pidegonhole, as it really doesn't get to that until until the 9th book (of 12), and more importantly, that's not even the actual point.

Really, it's about Gods and Men and war, and the right to choose.

It is not a piece of christian propaganda either (although written by a puritan circa 1650.) The players are described fully - Mammon, Belial, Moloch, Satan, to name a few on the one hand;
God, Uriel, Gabriel, Michael etc. on another. With flaws and strengths both. God is tyrannical, Mammon embraces the fall so as to easier find buried gold, Satan truly believes his rebellion is justified, and in defiance falls to his own pride.

I began this thread with the intent of gauging how FFH loremasters find similarities between this very old poem and what contemporary sources churn up. Even if people have even read or heard of it?

It is afterall a work of fantasy fiction much like any other, but the reason I find PL applicable to FFH more so than say LOTR, is the ideological theme, sure there are orks and goblins and elves...

But it's really men (all subtypes) and gods (all divine ranks) at war.

I would again like to thank everyone who participates in creative writing, because it is you who all make this possible.

Well, Agares is simple, he's Satan.

Mammon is Mammon who is obsessed with wealth, which fits perfectly.

 

[Jabie]

You'd have to get a definitive answer from Kael or Nixis-Knight, but I imagine there are influences from many sources, either directly or indirectly, from a wide selection of mythology, the Bible, Milton, Blake, Dante, Tolkein, Lovecraft and Poe, amongst many others.

 

[Kael]

There isnt much of a direct correlation. But there are 3 fairly major similarities:

1. FfH is fantasy with a heavy religious context. Any decent story deals with issues of morality and virtue, and LotR is no exception, but FfH is only half about the people. The rest is left to the world itself, to the nature of gods, angels and men. Fantasy is typically used to tell hero stories, we have some of those, but we also tell world stories. And even in the stories where our heroes shine it is often the events that take center stage.

2. Much like PL the central theme of FfH is corruption and redemption.

3. Both draw a lot from judeo-christian lore. We may use a lot of celtic neames and trappings, but scratch very deep and your going to find references to Lilith, Satan, the seven deadly sins and other christian trappings.