Parthenon

[Funak]

Mind explaining? Because everyone seems to disagree with that, and personally I don't find it ever worth building.

It provides you with some free tourism and culture upon building and then when you can land your first great artist you get an additional pile of culture/tourism (end value not counting the other artists yields are 11 culture and 6 tourism I think, can't remember exactly, which is far more yields than the Hanging gardens provide). On top of that it lower unhappiness (and the most dangerous type of unhappiness, in the sense of you getting tourism-penalties for it, not it being the most common unhappiness type) of the entire empire.

I'm not saying it's a top-tier wonder compared to for example the Oracle, I'm just saying that the other two ancient policy-tree wonders are all pretty bad.

 

[Starrynite120]

It provides you with some free tourism and culture upon building and then when you can land your first great artist you get an additional pile of culture/tourism (end value not counting the other artists yields are 11 culture and 6 tourism I think, can't remember exactly, which is far more yields than the Hanging gardens provide). On top of that it lower unhappiness (and the most dangerous type of unhappiness, in the sense of you getting tourism-penalties for it, not it being the most common unhappiness type) of the entire empire.

I'm not saying it's a top-tier wonder compared to for example the Oracle, I'm just saying that the other two ancient policy-tree wonders are all pretty bad.

I suppose if you consider the other two wonders bad this makes some sense. I've personally never considered them bad though. I go for Hanging Gardens quite often (not Terracota, don't usually play aggresively though). I'd also be more willing to accept your argument if it weren't the wonder for progress. However, it is, so I have to say that tourism doesn't really matter, as a progress player isn't really going to care about tourism. And that 11 culture isn't bad, however it requires another great artist which could be awhile, and by the time you get it, is 11 culture really worth the effort to get this and the penalty to future wonder production? I would say almost never. Also, the happiness part isn't all that impactful. I've never had a problem keeping culture happiness problems under control (leaving room for disagreement here as others may have different experience). For a progress player, this wonder is really a no go. At least Hanging Gardens and Terracotta are associated with their playstyle, even if you think they're weak. But Parthenon is weak AND doesn't fit the playstyle, making it doubly bad.

 

[tu_79]

The Parthenon does what it should: helps to alleviate the lack of culture. If a little buff is wanted, then I'd suggest a 10-15% resistance against foreign tourism, so the progress civ that builds it can stand a little longer not being influenced.

 

[Starrynite120]

The Parthenon does what it should: helps to alleviate the lack of culture. If a little buff is wanted, then I'd suggest a 10-15% resistance against foreign tourism, so the progress civ that builds it can stand a little longer not being influenced.

Well its really bad at doing that. I think it should do that, but better. A tourism resistance in the classical era would be really weird.

It doesn't have to be complicated. It could just be given more base culture.

 

[tu_79]

Well its really bad at doing that. I think it should do that, but better. A tourism resistance in the classical era would be really weird.

It doesn't have to be complicated. It could just be given more base culture.

Just as weird as tourism in Ancient, but it happens.

 

[Starrynite120]

Just as weird as tourism in Ancient, but it happens.

I don't think it fits the role of the Parthenon well (nor does it make historical sense). The Parthenon is supposed to be a culture boost. It should stay that, just be better at it.

 

[Forsti]

It provides you with some free tourism and culture upon building and then when you can land your first great artist you get an additional pile of culture/tourism (end value not counting the other artists yields are 11 culture and 6 tourism I think, can't remember exactly, which is far more yields than the Hanging gardens provide). On top of that it lower unhappiness (and the most dangerous type of unhappiness, in the sense of you getting tourism-penalties for it, not it being the most common unhappiness type) of the entire empire.

I'm not saying it's a top-tier wonder compared to for example the Oracle, I'm just saying that the other two ancient policy-tree wonders are all pretty bad.

Parthenon provides you with as much tourism as arena, a normal building that is available earlier. While Parthenon gives you 5 culture and arena only gives you 1, it is easy to get +4 production from arena. At that point arena gives you arguably better yields even though its production cost is just 150, compared to Parthenon's 250 plus scaler. When building an arena, you don't need to worry about someone else getting it first or increasing your future wonder costs. It is true that Parthenon's yields can be improved on early renaissance but it isn't a free buff, since you lose the golden age you could get from the artist. You should also note, that parthenon doesn't give you the base yields of your second great work. You'd get 3 culture and 2 tourism from it anyway if you placed the great work elsewhere. Parthenon lowering boredom is hardly worth mentioning, since you shouldn't be getting any of it anyway, unless you have just founded or conquered the city. It can also be argued that tourism penalties don't really make much difference, since most tourism is gained from historical events, which isn't affected by the tourism modifier.

I can't see how you could find Parthenon better than Hanging gardens or Terracotta army. Hanging gardens (production cost 200 plus scaler) provides you with a free garden (production cost 300), which basically covers the production cost. In addition to that you get 10 food, which allows you either to work your precious specialists even more or focus on tiles that don't provide food. +1 culture isn't much but it's still 20% of Parthenon's culture. Terracotta army's production cost (200 plus scaler) on the other hand is easily covered by the free units you get. For example, skirmisher, catapult and swordsman cost 100 production and horseman costs 90 production. In addition to that you get a golden age, some instant culture (I think 100, not sure) and a unhappiness modifier that can actually gain you a point or two of happiness at some point of the game. There are reasons why you'd want to build Hanging gardens or Terracotta army, while Parthenon is arguably weaker than a normal building that unlocks earlier and costs less.

 

[Starrynite120]

I might be happy with a buff that just adds 2 culture and some Great Artist points (maybe 2?), to help you get that second work, and maybe a free amphitheatre. It would keep its role the same, just make it more up to par.

I think the free amphiteatre is a big deal, it makes the production investment not as bad.

 

[Funak]

Parthenon provides you with as much tourism as arena, a normal building that is available earlier. While Parthenon gives you 4 culture and arena only gives you 1, it is easy to get +4 production from arena. At that point arena gives you arguably better yields even though its production cost is just 150, compared to Parthenon's 250 plus scaler. When building an arena, you don't need to worry about someone else getting it first or increasing your future wonder costs. It is true that Parthenon's yield can be improved on early renaissance but it isn't a free buff, since you lose the golden age you could get from the artist. You should also note, that parthenon doesn't give you the base yields of your second great work. You'd get 2 culture and 2 tourism from it anyway if you placed the great work elsewhere. Parthenon lowering boredom is hardly worth mentioning, since you shouldn't be getting any of it anyway, unless you have just founded or conquered the city. It can also be argued that tourism penalties don't really make much difference, since most tourism is gained from historical events, which isn't affected by the tourism modifier.

I can't see how you could find Parthenon better than Hanging gardens or Terracotta army. Hanging gardens (production cost 200 plus scaler) provides you with a free garden (production cost 300), which basically covers the production cost. In addition to that you get 10 food, which allows you either to work your precious specialists even more or focus on tiles that don't provide food. +1 culture isn't much but it's still 25% of Parthenon's culture. Terracotta army's production cost (200 plus scaler) on the other hand is easily covered by the free units you get. For example, skirmisher, catapult and swordsman cost 100 production and horseman costs 90 production. In addition to that you get a golden age, some instant culture (I think 100, not sure) and a unhappiness modifier that can actually gain you a point or two of happiness at some point of the game. There are reasons why you'd want to build Hanging gardens or Terracotta army, while Parthenon is arguably weaker than a normal building that unlocks earlier and costs less.

You're completely disregarding the super-easy 4 tourism 9 culture theming-bonus of the pantheon, and yeah if you do that then the wonder is comparable to an arena. Yeah on average maybe an arena is better than the pantheon for its hammercost, but that's not really a fair comparison, I mean the granary completely blows the hanging gardens away in relative hammercost. With progress you're bound to run out of useful buildings to build by the time you unlock the parthenon anyways, and the arena is one of the absolute strongest buildings of its era, so you're bound to already have it built. If you could chose to build a second and third arena instead of the Parthenon, of course you would, just like if you had the ability to build another 5 granaries instead of the hanging garden, you wouldn't even think twice about it.


Also worth mentioning, that if boredom truly never provides any trouble for anyone, then that's clearly the real problem here and boredom unhappiness should be increased.

 

[Starrynite120]

You're completely disregarding the super-easy 4 tourism 9 culture theming-bonus of the pantheon, and yeah if you do that then the wonder is comparable to an arena. Yeah on average maybe an arena is better than the pantheon for its hammercost, but that's not really a fair comparison, I mean the granary completely blows the hanging gardens away in relative hammercost. With progress you're bound to run out of useful buildings to build by the time you unlock the parthenon anyways, and the arena is one of the absolute strongest buildings of its era, so you're bound to already have it built. If you could chose to build a second and third arena instead of the Parthenon, of course you would, just like if you had the ability to build another 5 granaries instead of the hanging garden, you wouldn't even think twice about it.


Also worth mentioning, that if boredom truly never provides any trouble for anyone, then that's clearly the real problem here and boredom unhappiness should be increased.

Once again, the tourism is basically irrelevant for a progress player. 9 culture is pretty good, but again, you can't count the culture from the second great work, bringing it to 7, and you don't even start with that. 250 production for basically 4 culture (yes 2 tourism, but a progress player won't care) and 3 more later really sucks.

Making boredom harder to manage could be something I see being called for. Cause it is very easy to manage.

 

[Forsti]

You're completely disregarding the super-easy 4 tourism 9 culture theming-bonus of the pantheon, and yeah if you do that then the wonder is comparable to an arena. Yeah on average maybe an arena is better than the pantheon for its hammercost, but that's not really a fair comparison, I mean the granary completely blows the hanging gardens away in relative hammercost. With progress you're bound to run out of useful buildings to build by the time you unlock the parthenon anyways, and the arena is one of the absolute strongest buildings of its era, so you're bound to already have it built. If you could chose to build a second and third arena instead of the Parthenon, of course you would, just like if you had the ability to build another 5 granaries instead of the hanging garden, you wouldn't even think twice about it.

Yeah, I'm not. I mentioned that you can buff Parthenon, but it comes with the cost of losing the artist's golden age and it only comes at late medieval or early renaissance. It's also worth mentioning, that the theming bonus only gives you 7 culture, not 9. When I compared Parthenon to arena, I meant that in classical era arena gives you better yields than Parthenon (although now that I noticed that great work gives you 3 culture instead of 2 I'm not so sure anymore). Lower production cost is just something extra.

 

[Starrynite120]

Yeah, I'm not. I mentioned that you can buff Parthenon, but it comes with the cost of losing the artist's golden age and it only comes at late medieval or early renaissance. It's also worth mentioning, that the theming bonus only gives you 7 culture, not 9. When I compared Parthenon to arena, I meant that in classical era arena gives you better yields than Parthenon (although now that I noticed that great work gives you 3 culture instead of 2 I'm not so sure anymore). Lower production cost is just something extra.

Even if we decide the Parthenon is better than the arena, the fact that that can even be brought up is a problem. A wonder should not be comparable to any buildings in the same era.

 

[Funak]

Once again, the tourism is basically irrelevant for a progress player. 9 culture is pretty good, but again, you can't count the culture from the second great work, bringing it to 7, and you don't even start with that. 250 production for basically 4 culture and 3 more later really sucks.

I wasn't counting the other great work, but I had forgotten how much the actual themingbonus was worth

As a theming-bonus you get +4 culture/tourism base(that's the same for any 2slot building you've managed to theme), and another 3 culture (I counted it as 5 but after some more thinking it's probably 3).
So in total the building provides you with 2 culture base, another 3 culture and 2 tourism from the great work, and another 7 culture and 4 tourism when you manage to fill out the themingbonus (not counting the 3 culture and 2 tourism from the new great work).
That's a total of 12 culture and 6 tourism, a fairly decent chunk even if you dislike tourism as a yield and even if you have to wait a few turns to for the second artist before half the bonus kicks in.

Even if we decide the Parthenon is better than the arena, the fact that that can even be brought up is a problem. A wonder should not be comparable to any buildings in the same era.

Again, that's just not a fair comparison, I personally think both the Aqueduct and the Watermill are better than the Hanging gardens, because of their powerful lasting effect

 

[Starrynite120]

Again, that's just not a fair comparison, I personally think both the Aqueduct and the Watermill are better than the Hanging gardens, because of their powerful lasting effect

It seems to be a perfectly fair comparison to me. Within the Classical era the Hanging Gardens will give you a significantly bigger advantage than an aqueduct (Water Mill a bit different, but that's because its not a straight up food building). However, Parthenon doesn't give you much more of an advantage than the Amphitheater. Its also worth pointing out that that artist to give the theming bonus may not come for quite some time. Adding some Great Artist points to the Parthenon, which I suggested earlier along other things, could make the wonder a lot more appealing for a progress player. A free Amphitheater would help too. Those two buffs wouldn't make it so much stronger, but it would make it a much nicer wonder to be able to snag.

I should also mention that by the time you actually get the theming bonus that extra culture is going to be less significant, because you'll have had the time and buildings (amphitheater, writer's guild) to get your culture to a good place. The role of the Parthenon should be an earlier strong source of culture, and currently it is filling that role poorly.

I should also point out that you are the only one in this entire discussion to vote against buffing the Parthenon. If only one person thinks its good enough, but many others don't, then that should say something. I'm not trying to invalidate your opinion, but am saying there is a clear majority.

 

[CrazyG]

10 food in tradition's capital is almost always relevant (maybe unless playing India), and that garden is really powerful (don't forget +2 culture on it due to an earlier policy). I actually find hanging gardens one of the best wonders in the game, I can feel the difference if I fail to build it. I'm confident my most recent loss would have been a win if I hadn't missed the gardens

Seeing a very experienced player disagree made me stop and rethink, and look over the numbers again. After that I'm still really confident the Parthenon is absurdly weak.

By the point artists guild are built, I hope to have a pretty big empire, big enough that 12 culture isn't all that significant. In my last progress game I had around 150 per turn culture when artist guilds went up, so if I had a free Parthenon and themed it I would have got like +8% to my culture. That % would have dropped very quickly. In reality its even lower than that because your bonus yields account for a huge amount of culture during this time period. I'm not sure that's even stronger than -10% costs on all wonders.

 

[Txurce]

Once again, the tourism is basically irrelevant for a progress player.

If tourism were basically irrelevant to Progress players, Gazebo has a lot of balancing to do. But as the current rash of runaway culture wins show, that is most definitely not the case.

 

[Workerspam]

I build Parthenon most of times I go Progress (currently playing on Immortal); it's not great but I'm surprised how lowly regarded it seems to be. Both the culture and boredom modifier seems appropriate for the tree since Progress, unlike the other trees, provides no static city culture; and if I do run into boredom problems it's during this era (or late game). I understand that many don't necessarily care about the tourism but it's not a negative, and if you are planning to at least compete in tourism it's likely your first source of static tourism.

That said I also find it a bit lackluster. As others have already suggested slap a free amphitheater and maybe a couple great artist points on it and I think it's a perfectly fine policy wonder for Progress. Or given that the Parthenon appears to have been used at least as much as a Treasury as a Temple, give it some gold and a couple great merchant points to make it more broadly appealing.

 

[CrazyG]

What about just making it like a mini-progress (since the hanging gardens are basically a mini-tradition). Just as an example, what if you got only 15 gold for a citizen birth, but the Parthenon granted an additional 10 gold? Or it grants culture for researching a technology, or science for citizens being born, or something from city connections.

I actually don't like a free amphitheater (because I suspect if you add that this exact same thread would pop up complaining that the amphitheater is weak)

 

[Gazebo]

Amphitheaters are pretty solid. I can see giving either a free amphitheater or a free temple as an added bonus for the building. Or perhaps making the Parthenon grant all Temples and Amphitheaters +1 Culture in your empire. Benefits wide, but requires investment to do so.

 

[Starrynite120]

Amphitheaters are pretty solid. I can see giving either a free amphitheater or a free temple as an added bonus for the building. Or perhaps making the Parthenon grant all Temples and Amphitheaters +1 Culture in your empire. Benefits wide, but requires investment to do so.

I like something along the lines of culture to temples and/or amphitheaters. I would be happy with that if you were picking between this or the free amphitheater I would prefer the former.