Patch suggestion MOD (PtW version)

[Nagorak]

Yeah, I realize that about the wall now. My mistake.

 

[tonberry]

Originally posted by Nagorak
Instead of increasing the Guerrilla's attack, I recommend just leaving them the way they are but setting them so they hide nationality. That's how Guerrillas really work, for harassing the enemy (like Privateers but on land).

Please increase berseker's attack back up to 6. I don't even play Scandinavia, but by reducing their attack to 5 you really weakened them. Berserkers are supposed to be a formidable offensive force but they have almost no defense. Any fast unit can easily tear them apart because they can attack them before they can get close enough to attack. Due to their piss-poor defense they should have amazing offense, even if it stretches realism a bit. If you're really being conservative, I think you should just leave well enough alone on units (like the Berserker) that really don't need any changes.

As far as I know, enemy know who was attaking when they wage war against guerrilla. For example, American know it was the vietnamiese who attack. In my game, guerrila are for weak civilization who don't have ressourece to built something else.

The problem with the bersek is that he upgrade to riflemen who has an attack of 5, make no sense.

to player1 fanatic: I agree for the Great Wall but I stick on my position for the destroyer

 

[tonberry]

Found a way to keep the attack of the bersek: he doesn't upgrade to anything and the archer upgrade to the longbowmen. It didn't make sense that an archer can upgrade to the bersek anyway.

 

[tonberry]

I've mod the guerilla: 6 att; 6 def; 2 mov; ignore cost movement of forest and jungle. The infantry is still a lot better for "regular battle".

 

[player1 fanatic]

Originally posted by tonberry
Found a way to keep the attack of the bersek: he doesn't upgrade to anything and the archer upgrade to the longbowmen. It didn't make sense that an archer can upgrade to the bersek anyway.

Making them this way completly unique unit (not bow dependent)is interesting option (it's out of any upgrade chain).

Although I won't use it, since it's a little bit outside the conservative guildelines I use (and I don't like Cavarly = Bezerk too).

 

[player1 fanatic]

Originally posted by tonberry
I've mod the guerilla: 6 att; 6 def; 2 mov; ignore cost movement of forest and jungle. The infantry is still a lot better for "regular battle".

Interesting, although this makes from them some sort of Cavarly replacement. Pretty tough pillager.

And it does not mean that Infantry is better since your Guerrila CAN retreat. So looks for this like that Infantry is Swordsmen and Guerrila is a Horsemen equivalent. Add to that no need for Rubber resource, and in Rubber resource poor worlds Guerrila would just slice those Riflemen. Not to say that Tanks can't retreat from Guerrila attacks.

 

[tonberry]

Originally posted by player1 fanatic


Interesting, although this makes from them some sort of Cavarly replacement. Pretty tough pillager.

And it does not mean that Infantry is better since your Guerrila CAN retreat. So looks for this like that Infantry is Swordsmen and Guerrila is a Horsemen equivalent. Add to that no need for Rubber resource, and in Rubber resource poor worlds Guerrila would just slice those Riflemen. Not to say that Tanks can't retreat from Guerrila attacks.

Maybe, I admit I haven't test yet. I want the guerilla to be a unit who harass the enemy hence the movement bonus.
If I find them too powerful, I will make them 5/5 or 5/6.

 

[Nagorak]

Maybe hiding the Nationality of the guerilla isn't entirely accurate, but they are supposed to be mobile and thus hard to capture. Anyway, I've tried modifying the guerilla to make it so the nationality is hidden, but (due to the stupidity of the AI), it's pretty overpowered. In MP the hidden nationality would not be so bad, because you can figure out who is attacking you (if they make the mistake of capturing any workers or towns). Hmmm...

It might be better to make the guerilla ignore all terrain penalties and also give them a range 2 bombard attack (approximately equal to the cannon). That way the guerilla could run bombard terrain and retreat, or attack forces from far away, thus weakening them, before attacking.

With Berserk, why not just make them skip Musketman/Rifleman and upgrade directly to Marine (they are both amphibious offensive units, after all)?

 

[Meisier]

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Patch suggestion MOD - PtW version 1.22 readme (based on 1.21f PtW patch)

Author: player1

Why "patch suggestion"? Simple. These are the changes that if added to original Civ3 rules (based on v1.21f PtW patch) would improve game balance and fun. I tried using the conservative concept of not changing the rules too much, if not necessary, in order to keep original Civ3 flavor. I hope that players of this MOD will find game more fun and interesting.
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From what you said above I do not get the understanding that conservative means few edits using the editor, but that the user of the mod has the perception nothing really major changed. Someone should be able to just throw this mod on his PC and go at it, and, while there are lots and lots of minor changes, there will not be any that make him sit up and go "Now that's really different from CivIII original." (Well... PTW orignal anyway...)

The reason I am bringing this up is that I'm not sure that when you say something is not conservative enough for you that the above is what you mean. Some examples.

Someone (possibly on the none PTW thread, I'm not going to look it up) said that they thought the Bezerker had been placed in the wrong spot, should come with feudalism and replace the Medieval infantry for the Scandinavians. I don't understand why you thought this unconservative, except if you take into account the 6-7 edit changes necessary to get this to work. As I recall you didn't really offer an explanation… I don't see how this change affects the Flavor of PTW in the least…

My ship idea (which someone else may very well have had before me…) Has this effect. Late Sailing ships and Ironclads lose one movement point. Galleys lose one movement in Ocean and Sea, and caravels one movement in oceans (two if they get a bonus movement from something). Granted, it takes about 30-50 edits to get this mod into place… but the above is all the user sees!! How does this change the flavor of the origninal CIV III?

For the last example lets take a look at your mod of having everything from ancient and medieval times with the exception of knights and Calvary upgrade to rifleman. A very easy mod to put into place… but what does it do to the game flow? How is/could the AI be affected? (I did not implement this mod in my own take…) I don't think I really need to explain… let me know if I do.

On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong… In which case I would appreciate it if you would explain why a idea is not conservative enough for you. If we are posting on this string its because we are interested a conservative mod, and we think our ideas are conservative. Because of that, just stating that an idea is not conservative is almost the same as just saying that it totaly sucks, which I don't think you are trying to say, but is certaintly what can come across.

If I'm correct, and what you mean by conservative is number of edits, perhaps your mod description should be changed? Or at least made clearer…

 

[player1 fanatic]

Originally posted by Meisier
Someone (possibly on the none PTW thread, I'm not going to look it up) said that they thought the Bezerker had been placed in the wrong spot, should come with feudalism and replace the Medieval infantry for the Scandinavians. I don't understand why you thought this unconservative, except if you take into account the 6-7 edit changes necessary to get this to work. As I recall you didn't really offer an explanation… I don't see how this change affects the Flavor of PTW in the least…

I just tought that since Firaxis designed Bezerk to be Longbow replacement, to leave it as it is.
(which does not mean tht moving it to Feudalism is bad)

Originally posted by Meisier
My ship idea (which someone else may very well have had before me…) Has this effect. Late Sailing ships and Ironclads lose one movement point. Galleys lose one movement in Ocean and Sea, and caravels one movement in oceans (two if they get a bonus movement from something). Granted, it takes about 30-50 edits to get this mod into place… but the above is all the user sees!! How does this change the flavor of the origninal CIV III?

Its totaly new concept not seen in Civ1, Civ2, CtP, nor even Civ3.
It's not bad at all, but I try to keep as close to original.
(and newbeis can be confused if don't read the readme carefully)

Originally posted by Meisier
For the last example lets take a look at your mod of having everything from ancient and medieval times with the exception of knights and Calvary upgrade to rifleman. A very easy mod to put into place… but what does it do to the game flow? How is/could the AI be affected? (I did not implement this mod in my own take…) I don't think I really need to explain… let me know if I do.

This all started before PtW, when in modern times you could built Bow and Sword units. So I though it needed to be fixed.
Eventualy it did get fixed in PtW by adding Geurrila, but I tired to stay to concept from non-PtW version. AI uses them well, since they have both Offense and Defense flag, plus boosted offense to 5.

Originally posted by Meisier
On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong… In which case I would appreciate it if you would explain why a idea is not conservative enough for you. If we are posting on this string its because we are interested a conservative mod, and we think our ideas are conservative. Because of that, just stating that an idea is not conservative is almost the same as just saying that it totaly sucks, which I don't think you are trying to say, but is certaintly what can come across.

No, your mods don't suck at all.

Also, personnaly, I do have some non conservative tweaks, like lethal bombard for fighters and jets, or moving Ironclads and Space Parts later it the game, but I just fealt that these tweaks were too much essential to be ignored (balance of aircrafts, balance of ironclads vs frigates, more fun modern age).


Anyway, I see this mod as development platform used to make cusom MODs, more suited to different types of players.
(there are several such MODs that can be found in MOD forums, plus AU mod at Apolyton strategy forum)

 

[Meisier]

Well, that all makes sense... this is a "mostly conservative" mod then...

 

[player1 fanatic]

small news item:
version of this MOD at www.civ3.com is also updated to reflect all recent changes done in this forum (current v1.22)

 

[player1 fanatic]

Version 1.23 is out.

Just small changes:

Since Bombers in this MOD have operational range of 8, it seamed strange to leave Tactical Nukes with shorter range of 6. That's why I now increased bombard range of Tactical Nukes to 8 tiles.

I also fixed inconsistency of having Helicopters with longer range then Jet Fighters by putting operational range of Helicopters back to 6 tiles. Paratroopers still have airdrop range of 8, since they are carried by long range aircrafts, not helicopters.

Note: Since BIX format is same for both 1.14f and 1.21f PtW patch, you could use this MOD with 1.14f patch too.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

thanks so much player1. i tweaked the rules myself but computer problems meant all my work had been lost but looking through most of the mods on offer i was shocked to find your mod is almost identical to the changes to the rules that i made. this means youve saved me a LOT of time going back through it all. your arguements for the changes are very diplomatic and in my opinion makes for a much more enjoyable game. well done and keep up the good work (and stick to your guns about being conservative with the changes since theres pleanty of mods that overhaul everything beyond recognition already)

 

[player1 fanatic]

Thanks

 

[player1 fanatic]

Version 1.24 is out!

Comments to changes in v1.24

MOD has been made compatible with v1.27f PtW patch.
That's all.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Conquests version of Patch Suggestion MOD is released.

Link:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75580