PD - Questions

[Lamabreeder]

Hi!

I find The Power Democracy strategy of Starlifter, Andu Indorin and who else is to be credited for it very fascinating! Especially since it is almost solely based on my favourite pets.

So I tried it and ran immediatly into trouble (large random map, deity), perhaps because I am used to another style of gameplay. So I have the following questions:

1.
a) How many preparational turns are roughly needed before a tech rate of at least one tech per turn can be achieved? Or: How many techs have been researched until then?
b) There is noted that AI will have musketeers at most when the player has Stealth, but I have observed that some AI will have this pretty early. Around which turn can a PD have Stealth?
c) How much conquest (including city bribing) has to be done? Can a PD work with letting every AI completely intact?

2. How do I use ship chains to maximum effect?
a) Is it possible to bring a caravan in one turn around half the world? I have occasionally experienced that an empty boat could take over the units of a full one by simply driving through it, but for some obscure reasons that did not work the last time I tried.
b) I have problems with the speed of my fleet. To establish a ship chain around half of the world requires first to send them there, but with speed 3 or later with Magellan 5 for my triremes or caravelles that takes me forever! Or do I have all the time to bring my ships in position because the Power Democracy effectively starts not that early?

3. How do I use caravans to maximum effect?
a) Is there a formula that describes how much revenue an „incoming“ caravan will yield?
b) I’m especially interested in how much difference it makes when sending asked-for and not-asked-for commodities to foreign cities because I have the constant problem that I send my caravan away with a commodity that is asked for, but when it finally arrives, the city already demands something else. Which is quite frustrating.
c) I’m also interested in how much the distance weighs. I play on large maps and until now have only traded with civilizations on the continent next door - my triremes have been too slow and in danger of sinking to go farther and I had not the time for Lighthouse and had not researched Navigation yet.
d) Do the Tax/Science/Luxury settings affect the trade revenue? I think not, but I would like to know for sure.

4. What kind of expansion strategy is useful in ancient times when building up a Power Democracy? The disadvantage of rapid and constant expansion right from the start is small cities with few trade and few shields and thus lesser scientific output and lesser capabilities to build crucuial wonders let alone caravans. Limiting to a constant number of cities has the disadvantages that new founded cities start with population 1 and take very long to grow into an useful addition to my empire. But if I use three settlers per city and let it immediatly celebrate it takes quite a bunch of ressources from my relatively few main cities and thus hinders them from building caravans.

5. How fast should I switch to Republic and/or Democracy? I suppose as soon as possible?

6. How to handle those nasty barbarians? My normal strategy is building two or three passive and perhaps an active defensive unit (like Elephant), having Leo and City Walls everywhere as soon as possible, so barbs normally don’t stand a chance. But now I seem not to have the time for that, did not build City Walls, Leo and only one defender. The result is that this city is garuanteed to fall before barbarian raiders with a movement of two when a random ship lands on the beach. In fact I experienced that even a second city fell because I was not able to send in reinforcements within one turn to stop that damned knight. Or do you simply switch off barbarians? (I normally play Raging Hordes.) The method to buy off barbs with diplomats obviously does not work with those raiders, nor does it with stacked barbarians. They are good enough to bribe theese cities back, but that is costly, loses two to three pop units and city improvements (actually, they are lost when the barb got the city). I hate barbarians.

7. Is it possible to play PD without a SSC? I had a relatively decent tech level due to this and due to Marco Polo, not due to my Lamas. What adjustments would it need me to make? Is it correct that in the later stage with a fully operational PD the SCC does only marginally help with research and the main science comes from caravans?

8. PD is an overkill to max score (and have fun along the way, of course), right?

Okay, these are lots of questions. I am happy for every answer for any detail or for any link. And I suppose that an answer to one question will render lots of other questions obsolete...
Thanks in advance,
Lamabreeder

 

[ElephantU]

1.
a) How many preparational turns are roughly needed before a tech rate of at least one tech per turn can be achieved? Or: How many techs have been researched until then?

Talk about jumping right into it!

There are preparations for PD, and then there are "optimizations". The preparations are the same as you would do for Republic, only tougher: dealing with unhappiness issues, and dealing with military support issues. What I think you are interested in are the "optimizations", and they can go in two directions or together: optimizing city research or long distance trade. I don't think it is possible to give an exact number of turns or techs necessary; in some cases I have gotten into the tech-per-turn mode before even switching to Democracy.

In an attempt at giving some sort of answer, though, I'll mention some things I think you need to have in hand for tech-per-turn. For city research the SSC is key - it should have Colossus, Copernicus, Newtons, Shakespeare, Aquaduct and Sewers, Marketplace and Bank, Library and University and have been WLTCD "celebrated" up past size 20. It should be located where it can use three or four high-trade terrain specials, or a large river system with bridges. It should have three trade routes with more than 10 arrows each. In addition, the majority of the other cities should be around size 8-12 with a significant amount of trade arrows, and should have 2-3 trade routes and at least a Library each. For long-distance trade a ship chain is the key, perhaps even two chains. Magellans is the key wonder, and the ships should ideally be at least Galleons.

b) There is noted that AI will have musketeers at most when the player has Stealth, but I have observed that some AI will have this pretty early. Around which turn can a PD have Stealth?

Again, picking a turn to shoot for is difficult - it depends on a lot of factors, from starting terrain and techs to Barb invasions, diplomatic successes and exploration. If you have done the proper preparations so that your shift from Republic to Democracy is smooth you may be going from a tech every other turn to two techs per turn, or you might have emphasized your city research at the cost of neglecting a ship chain and only be getting one. It depends...

c) How much conquest (including city bribing) has to be done? Can a PD work with letting every AI completely intact?

Conquest does not HAVE to be done except when you have run out of room to expand. It is usually easier to expand concentrically, so when you bump into a neighboring civ you have to decide whether to go "through them" (conquest) or around them. Realize that in Democracy military units have a much greater negative impact on happiness than in Republic, so the costs (usually in lowered city celebration growth) must be weighed against the consequences. The special value of Democracy over Republic is elimination of corruption and waste, which becomes crippling the more your cities multiply and spread out.

2. How do I use ship chains to maximum effect?
a) Is it possible to bring a caravan in one turn around half the world? I have occasionally experienced that an empty boat could take over the units of a full one by simply driving through it, but for some obscure reasons that did not work the last time I tried.

Yes - in fact, it is possible to take it all the way around the world if you have a long enough chain. When you load a unit aboard a ship it goes to "sleep". When you move one "transport" ship into the same tile as another you need to "wake up" the units you want to transfer (click the tile, then click each of the units in the list once), then move out the SECOND ship first. When you move a ship into a port city it automatically wakes up any units aboard - if there is another ship in the port, put the ones you want back to sleep and move out the second ship. Space your ships as far apart as their movement allowance (Galleons: 4, with Magellan: 6) so that when two ships meet in one tile the first will have used its full allowance while the second is unused. You might want to modify this around other civs to allow an extra move point in case another civ's ship is in the way. Also, you might want to have a Dip or Spy aboard some of the ships - bribing an AI ship closer to an AI city than one of yours gives you an unsupported ship, which is VERY valuable.

b) I have problems with the speed of my fleet. To establish a ship chain around half of the world requires first to send them there, but with speed 3 or later with Magellan 5 for my triremes or caravelles that takes me forever! Or do I have all the time to bring my ships in position because the Power Democracy effectively starts not that early?

I would strongly recommend that you replace your Triremes and Caravels with Galleons before shifting to Democracy. If not, consider rehoming them in the city with Shakespeares. Since they have at least one attack point they cause double unhappiness in a Democracy.

Obviously, the Power Democracy can not start until after you have discovered Democracy, but you should have gotten through Navigation and ideally Magnetism as well. Positioning your ships is part of the planning, but can be done incrementally. I usually try to get Marco Polo right after getting Trade, and I trade right away for AI maps, so I know ahead where the AI homelands are and early naval exploration focuses on finding Trireme routes to nearby civs for trade. I try to get overseas trading going right away, subject to only to key wonder races, but I start with the nearest civs and extend the distance as I get more ships into the chain. The hardest temptation to resist is the urge to explore the unknown...

3. How do I use caravans to maximum effect?
a) Is there a formula that describes how much revenue an „incoming“ caravan will yield?

Yes - Samson did an excellent thread on that, which you can find from the "Great Library" over at Apolyton.Net. I don't have the link with me at the moment, but the title was "Calculating Caravan/Freight Delivery Payments".

b) I’m especially interested in how much difference it makes when sending asked-for and not-asked-for commodities to foreign cities because I have the constant problem that I send my caravan away with a commodity that is asked for, but when it finally arrives, the city already demands something else. Which is quite frustrating.

Demand bonuses range from doubling to quadrupling the bonus payment, subject to a limitation of 2/3 the current beaker research rate. And the problem with shifting demand is a big part of the reason for a ship chain - get it there right away. Samson also did another thread on "How Supply and Demand Lists Change" that lists formulas and variables for changing demand. It is a must-read if you are trying to make the most of caravan trade.

c) I’m also interested in how much the distance weighs. I play on large maps and until now have only traded with civilizations on the continent next door - my triremes have been too slow and in danger of sinking to go farther and I had not the time for Lighthouse and had not researched Navigation yet.

Distance is a significant factor for the bonus payments, but not the ongoing trade routes. I don't recall the formula but it is documented in Samson's thread. I think there was some "rule of thumb" that if you increase from 10 to 20 in distance between the cities the payoff doubles.

d) Do the Tax/Science/Luxury settings affect the trade revenue? I think not, but I would like to know for sure.

No, but they determine what you get out of your ongoing trade route arrows. What does affect the revenue is how your workers are arranged on terrain that generates trade arrows, as well as several "multipliers" like Different Continents, Same Civ, and Transport infrastructure.

4. What kind of expansion strategy is useful in ancient times when building up a Power Democracy? The disadvantage of rapid and constant expansion right from the start is small cities with few trade and few shields and thus lesser scientific output and lesser capabilities to build crucuial wonders let alone caravans. Limiting to a constant number of cities has the disadvantages that new founded cities start with population 1 and take very long to grow into an useful addition to my empire. But if I use three settlers per city and let it immediatly celebrate it takes quite a bunch of ressources from my relatively few main cities and thus hinders them from building caravans.

Power Democracy is built on the right foundation. Part of that is a basic group of cities (Starlifter seems to favor around 25, Andu Indorin seems to favor 12-15). The period of early expansion should not last long - for me, often only until I get Trade. Then you can separate your cities into two groups: those to focus on building the SSC and getting key wonders, and those to focus on pumping out more Settlers. When you first switch to Republic you should be in or near a situation where you can drop everything, set high Luxuries rates, and WLTCD your cities up to at least size 7-8 (if you have Construction by then, put an Aquaduct and Colosseum in the SSC and take it to size 12). Shift production to Settlers everywhere (unless you are about to lose a key wonder race) and try to pop out one or two while the WLTCD goes on - the city will stay the same size, you will just "lose" two food. Once the majority of the cities have gotten big, shift the Lux back to just enough to keep out of disorder and reset workers to make more shields.

The instant size 3 city is a tactic to use once the PD has gotten started, as it requires a large gold input to work right. It is based on RushBuying one improvement every turn for 4-5 turns and having one or two Settlers or Engineers working around the city from the start, laying roads and doing irrigation to help the city grow. You need some idea of the amount of "spare" cash you will have coming in regularly, how much room you have for expansion, and have enough Set/Eng units available to make it work. Otherwise it is a waste.

5. How fast should I switch to Republic and/or Democracy? I suppose as soon as possible?

For Republic, as soon as you are ready to deal with the unhappiness issues via Luxuries and RushBuying improvements. For Democracy, assuming you have a stable Republic going, as soon as you have reorganized your military units to prevent the double unhappiness from causing instant disorder.

6. How to handle those nasty barbarians? My normal strategy is building two or three passive and perhaps an active defensive unit (like Elephant), having Leo and City Walls everywhere as soon as possible, so barbs normally don’t stand a chance. But now I seem not to have the time for that, did not build City Walls, Leo and only one defender. The result is that this city is garuanteed to fall before barbarian raiders with a movement of two when a random ship lands on the beach. In fact I experienced that even a second city fell because I was not able to send in reinforcements within one turn to stop that damned knight. Or do you simply switch off barbarians? (I normally play Raging Hordes.) The method to buy off barbs with diplomats obviously does not work with those raiders, nor does it with stacked barbarians. They are good enough to bribe theese cities back, but that is costly, loses two to three pop units and city improvements (actually, they are lost when the barb got the city). I hate barbarians.

Barbs can be a boon or a bane, depending on your preparations. They do not "spawn" before the 16th turn, so ignore them at the beginning. If you are going for Early Republic, try to get Writing early and build a Diplomat right away. When Barbs land early it is usually two military units (Archers or Horse) with a Leader. Bribe the one without the Leader and use it to kill or withstand the other (if you have time to fortify on defensive terrain). If you can withstand the second one, chase down and "capture" the Leader for a big gold "ransom". I usually go Monarchy-Trade-Philosophy-MonoTheism, and I try to get Bronze either just before Monarchy or just after (Bronze gives you both cheap double-defense Phalanx units, as well as option to build Colossus). Two-move Barbs don't usually land very early, so after your first group of cities is laid down connect them together with some roads and station at least one Phalanx and one Horse or Chariot in a central location where they can move in one turn to a threatened city. If you have not gotten into Republic yet you will be using Warriors or Phalanx to impose "martial law" on unhappy citizens, so that gives you some basic defense. When you can, explore around your home island with ships and you will see the Barb ship coming early enough to move units around in preparation.

Your earlier instincts were not all bad, just kind of excessive. City Walls are only needed when the city is bordering an AI homeland on the same continent. They are not worth the cost elsewhere. With one or two defenders in each city, along with roads, you should be able to hold off the first attack while reinforcements from nearby cities move in to help. If a Phalanx turns Veteran, move him to a central location and use him as your "fire brigade". Use any Chariots or Horse you get from huts to kill any Barbs without Leaders BEFORE they get to your cities. If they tend to reappear in a particular area fortify a Phalanx on a hill or mountain nearby as a Barb magnet.

 

[ElephantU]

7. Is it possible to play PD without a SSC? I had a relatively decent tech level due to this and due to Marco Polo, not due to my Lamas. What adjustments would it need me to make? Is it correct that in the later stage with a fully operational PD the SCC does only marginally help with research and the main science comes from caravans?

Andu Indorin mentions a World Trade City rather than an SSC. The idea is based on rehoming caravans in a city with a large number of trade arrows (and Colossus, at least till Flight). If most of your beakers come from trade deliveries rather than city research, then yes you can do without an SSC. If you want to get more than one tech per turn, though, trade deliveries can only bring in one so the cities are going to have to add enough to bring in the second or third. A proper SSC can often bring in one all by itself, leaving your other cities to contribute toward a third. It is not easy, but I have seen it done.

8. PD is an overkill to max score (and have fun along the way, of course), right?

PD is a major "rush" when you get it working right. It is sort of a perfectionist's dream state. It will NOT lead to the earliest possible conquest victory. It may lead to an earlier AC landing, but you might find yourself getting lost in the micro-management and forgetting what you were trying to accomplish. Max score is a better goal than either of the two "earliest" victories. Having fun depends on what you enjoy...

 

[Lamabreeder]

Hey ElephantU,

thanks for your detailed advice! I can see it more clearly now and feel motivated to try it again. It is unbelievable how much is still in there, in good old Civ2.
Lamabreeder