The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Gogf: As Greek Stud said, an "acropolis" is really only a kind of fortified citadel. Plenty of Greek towns had one; Athens's just happen to be the most famous one.
Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread
- Thread starter Amenhotep7
- Start date
Greek Stud
Prince
This is more of a topic, I mean this could be related to the Wonder related to Athens. Whether it's the Parthenon or Erechtheion (funny how we use Greek for this, are we gunna be spelling Byzantion the Greek way then, instead of Byzantium?).
I danced in a Greek Folk Dance Group instructed by Mary Curtis and Helen Gary. They named our group the Panathenian Dancers of Tucson Arizona. We got this name by the International road that connected Athens to the world. The Panathenian Road led straight into Athens up to the Agoura atop the Acropolis and all its temples, including the Parthenon. The significance of the road was its connection to the world (politically, through trade, etc.). The road had significance of trade and political relations above anything else.
Why we named our dance group that? I could go on forever about the social and cultural importance of Greek Dance to all the City-States, I even known their costume types. Each City-States has a unique method. The Spartans danced before war and found it important to include women. Athenians and scholars wrote that Greek Dance was essential to teach fitness, poetry and music. A man who didn't know how to dance was barbaric. This idea might come from the fact that a dance was like a prayer is to Christianity. If you don't know how to pray you are not Christian. If you don't know have to dance, you are not pagan nor were you Greek. Greek Dancing orginates from the Minoan Culture and although the Mycenaens conquered Crete, they actually absorbed the Minoan culture instead of forcing the Minoans to follow their culture.
Those are just some fun facts. I have more, but if I wrote more, we'd be having to much fun.
I danced in a Greek Folk Dance Group instructed by Mary Curtis and Helen Gary. They named our group the Panathenian Dancers of Tucson Arizona. We got this name by the International road that connected Athens to the world. The Panathenian Road led straight into Athens up to the Agoura atop the Acropolis and all its temples, including the Parthenon. The significance of the road was its connection to the world (politically, through trade, etc.). The road had significance of trade and political relations above anything else.
Why we named our dance group that? I could go on forever about the social and cultural importance of Greek Dance to all the City-States, I even known their costume types. Each City-States has a unique method. The Spartans danced before war and found it important to include women. Athenians and scholars wrote that Greek Dance was essential to teach fitness, poetry and music. A man who didn't know how to dance was barbaric. This idea might come from the fact that a dance was like a prayer is to Christianity. If you don't know how to pray you are not Christian. If you don't know have to dance, you are not pagan nor were you Greek. Greek Dancing orginates from the Minoan Culture and although the Mycenaens conquered Crete, they actually absorbed the Minoan culture instead of forcing the Minoans to follow their culture.
Those are just some fun facts. I have more, but if I wrote more, we'd be having to much fun.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Well, it's a little OT, but it's a nice article, Greek Stud.
As for what wonders could be destroyed: I toldja that I'm not making my descision until I hear more opinions...Louis made one, and it's a pretty good point. Now I need 2 or 3 more before I make my verdict.
As for what wonders could be destroyed: I toldja that I'm not making my descision until I hear more opinions...Louis made one, and it's a pretty good point. Now I need 2 or 3 more before I make my verdict.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Re: Erechtheion/Erechtheum: I very much wish that we chose a consistent nomenclature, and use only Greek/Latin/trad. English names (the later two largely overlapping, of course; exceptions include "Athenae" vs "Athens"), whichever we dicide on. My vote's still on traditional English, because they will be the most familiar to most players.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Sure...All names are from now on in English. What wonders should be destroyed? If I don't receive input soon, I'll decide on my own...Louis, The Temple of Artemis is going to be there...It's a wonder of the world...
What wonders should be destroyed? If I don't receive input soon, I'll decide on my own...Louis, The Temple of Artemis is going to be there...It's a wonder of the world...
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Then it's "Erechtheum".
What wonders to ditch ...
I don't really see the relevance of "Poetry of Sappho" or "School of Homer", to begin with.
What wonders to ditch ...
I don't really see the relevance of "Poetry of Sappho" or "School of Homer", to begin with.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Speaking of wonders, what happened to the idea of giving Persia a couple small wonders spawning Iranian troops every few turns?
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
There was an idea for that?
...Nah...It'd make Persia too influential...We were even considering giving Persia no naval units to build...I like this idea.
I'll agree with ya there..."Poetry of Sappho" and "School of Homer" don't have much relevance in the time we're talking about here.
...Nah...It'd make Persia too influential...We were even considering giving Persia no naval units to build...I like this idea.I'll agree with ya there..."Poetry of Sappho" and "School of Homer" don't have much relevance in the time we're talking about here.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
The idea behind those smaller wonders actually was the complete opposite; the Anatolian cities are only able to build forgettable infantry levies, while the half-way decent eastern troops - Iranian cavalrymen, chiefly - would be unbuildable, and thus only available in restricted quantities.
It also nicely helps giving a sense that there's alot more Persia off the map than on it, and helps make sure that the loss of a few western-Anatolian cities doesn't weaken the Empire unduly.
As you probably can tell, I'm in love with the idea. If you don't like it, fine, but expect a few Xenian speeches in favour of it!
It also nicely helps giving a sense that there's alot more Persia off the map than on it, and helps make sure that the loss of a few western-Anatolian cities doesn't weaken the Empire unduly.
As you probably can tell, I'm in love with the idea. If you don't like it, fine, but expect a few Xenian speeches in favour of it!
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
I only reckon giving Chios the School of Homer to give it some importance - Samos and Chios were influential with the former being recognised by everyone as a very powerful country. I've never heard of Sappho before, so I'm not going to comment on him.
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
On Persian small wonders - it's a good idea to give them some, but is it possible for improvements to spawn units every x number of turns? If it is, then you could do that and give it one culture per turn and 0 upkeep, so in case it is captured the other civs won't get those units as the building would be destroyed. These improvements could also not be available to be built.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Okay, I don't wanna face Xen's speeches....We'll go ahead with Iranian wonders...
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Well, Lesbianism is named adfter Lesbos because of her, but historians cannot even agree is she actually was lesbian or not, so calling her "inventtor" of it seems highly malplaced IMHO.
There are very few hard facts about her live, but her poetry does indeed contain enthusiastic descriptions of beautiful young girls.
There are very few hard facts about her live, but her poetry does indeed contain enthusiastic descriptions of beautiful young girls.
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
Thanks. 
Doesn't really need to be in the scenario then.
Doesn't really need to be in the scenario then.
Kryten
Smeee heeeeed
Mongoloid Cow didn't like this idea (
), and it is a bit drastic.However, after looking at maps of the period, there may be a more 'elegant' solution.
As all the Ionian coastal cities belonged or were allied to Athens, that doesn't leave many places for Persian coastal cities. So let the Persians have ships....but with only one or at most two coastal cities, they won't be building much of a fleet!
This is better because it leaves open certain 'what if' situations.
Should the Persians capture several Ionian coastal cities, then they MAY end up with a large fleet, and MIGHT end up invading Greece itself.
(And before you ask: yes, I AM still making units. "Armed Helots", "Drafted Hoplites", and "Ephboi" recruits, followed by "Greek Horsemen", "Thracian Peltasts", and "Thracian Horsemen". With luck, maybe even a "Persian Horseman" and "Persian Levy" infantry.
)Greek Stud
Prince
Sappho writes about Lesbians... YES! We have to add that! Who cares if she's a lesbian or not. OPA!
BTW, how do we program Music to the different eras? I like the new songs Conquests brings but I think we can find some new Mediterrainean songs that sound cool.
I'll probably ask around for this, but is anyone building a unit for either Egypt or Nubia for a swordsman on a Camel? We could possibly just use the unit made for Age of Mythology, but it would be cool to have Egypt have mounted Camel units.
I talked about the Panathenian Road in case you wanted to make that a wonder; although we have too many Wonders. I'm not sure about the details but I believe it was made of Marble stone slabs and gold lining. And an endless line of columns that if you go to Athens today you will find random columns from this path still standing. Thousands of years old. For ceremonies they were draped with red curtains much like how the Parathenon was draped with curtains between columns. Later in history, the Queen of Athens found an Orthodox Monk on top of one of the columns meditating. She went to him and asked him how he got up there, he didn't answer, then she asked how long it had been since he had last eatten, he didn't answer, I forget how this story ends but she ends up becoming a Christian Saint. hmm... You'd think the man on the column would become the Saint eh!
BTW, how do we program Music to the different eras? I like the new songs Conquests brings but I think we can find some new Mediterrainean songs that sound cool.
I'll probably ask around for this, but is anyone building a unit for either Egypt or Nubia for a swordsman on a Camel? We could possibly just use the unit made for Age of Mythology, but it would be cool to have Egypt have mounted Camel units.
I talked about the Panathenian Road in case you wanted to make that a wonder; although we have too many Wonders. I'm not sure about the details but I believe it was made of Marble stone slabs and gold lining. And an endless line of columns that if you go to Athens today you will find random columns from this path still standing. Thousands of years old. For ceremonies they were draped with red curtains much like how the Parathenon was draped with curtains between columns. Later in history, the Queen of Athens found an Orthodox Monk on top of one of the columns meditating. She went to him and asked him how he got up there, he didn't answer, then she asked how long it had been since he had last eatten, he didn't answer, I forget how this story ends but she ends up becoming a Christian Saint. hmm... You'd think the man on the column would become the Saint eh!
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
Originally posted by Kryten
Mongoloid Cow didn't like this idea (
However, after looking at maps of the period, there may be a more 'elegant' solution.
As all the Ionian coastal cities belonged or were allied to Athens, that doesn't leave many places for Persian coastal cities. So let the Persians have ships....but with only one or at most two coastal cities, they won't be building much of a fleet!
This is better because it leaves open certain 'what if' situations.
Should the Persians capture several Ionian coastal cities, then they MAY end up with a large fleet, and MIGHT end up invading Greece itself.
Was there anything meant by that
? IMO its a good idea of yours Kryten with Persia having only a few coastal cities.
Originally posted by Kryten
(And before you ask: yes, I AM still making units. "Armed Helots", "Drafted Hoplites", and "Ephboi" recruits, followed by "Greek Horsemen", "Thracian Peltasts", and "Thracian Horsemen". With luck, maybe even a "Persian Horseman" and "Persian Levy" infantry.
That's good to know that you aren't making a whole heap of new units. It's not like your making 6 or possibly 8 new units or anything.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I think you could even use the "True Immortal" unit as a Persian Infantry. Speaking of Immortal's, were they still used as Body Guards to the King? I don't think they should be made in bulk, like they are in Civ3, but how about giving them one (or a small amount of) Immortal unit(s) and not let them build any more. Although not completely accurate (Persian Immortals were immediately restored to full size, no matter the cost, giving them the appearance of invinsibility), it does reflect their limited battle use (They were used at one battle because they were better equipped than the regular troops, they still were unsucessful at defeating the Greek armies, but managed to scare of some Phoecians and outflank the army at Thermopoly). Its also possible to just make them really expensive, or Improvement produced.
Of course, Persia's main army was Archers, Horse Archers, and levied troops. I wonder how difficult it would be to give an Immortal a bow, and then stick him on a Horse. (Now I'm just rambling
).I'm having trouble trying to give ideas to shrink the wonder list. This is mostly since I don't know all of the wonders, and their impact at the time. One thing is certain, though. Ignoring wonders that were already built (Athens need the Parthenon, Delian League, etc), there really should only be a small list of buildable wonders in the game (I think 10 max). And these wonders should have disctinct and useful abilities (Some culture, some militaristic, etc). And it would be better to have them spread out. As for pre-built wonders, if they don't have a direct use (Delian League gives Athens needed gold, Longwalls gives them defense) or are very famous (Parthenon symbolises Athens) they should probably ignored. Some wonders are more important to increase the historical strengths of civs (Sparta gets strong militaristic abilities, Athens has culture and wealth, etc) and should apply to more than just the 2 main civs.
This is just a general idea, of course.
Greek Stud
Prince
Actually the Ionian Islands were not all allied with Athens.
Ithika was allied with Sparta and the Peloponnesian League.
Korkyra (Corfu), Cephallonia and Zakinthos allied with Athens and the Delian League.
Korkyra had once been a colony of Corinth, so it was part of the Peloponnesian league until Athens came to the aid for an independent rebellion of the island. This and the trade embargo placed on Megara swayed Corinth to ask Sparta to declare war on Athens. Sparta with the help of the Boiotian League headed by Thebes attacked Plataia to bring it to its side sparking Athens to come to the aid of Plataia.
Remember: Ionian Islands are west of Mainland Greece. Iannina is in Epiros and Ionia is Southwest Anatolia. Next to the Lydians or the Persians at this time.
Ithika was allied with Sparta and the Peloponnesian League.
Korkyra (Corfu), Cephallonia and Zakinthos allied with Athens and the Delian League.
Korkyra had once been a colony of Corinth, so it was part of the Peloponnesian league until Athens came to the aid for an independent rebellion of the island. This and the trade embargo placed on Megara swayed Corinth to ask Sparta to declare war on Athens. Sparta with the help of the Boiotian League headed by Thebes attacked Plataia to bring it to its side sparking Athens to come to the aid of Plataia.
Remember: Ionian Islands are west of Mainland Greece. Iannina is in Epiros and Ionia is Southwest Anatolia. Next to the Lydians or the Persians at this time.
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