Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread

[The Last Conformist]

Who wrote of Ionian Islands? Kryten wrote of Ionian coastal cities.

Re: Immortals, again, the Persian sources know nothing of a unit known as 'the Immortals'. The royal guard is refered to as 'the companions' (which designation the Macedonians apparently nicked). More to the point, a royal guard unit would not have been present in the far west of the Empire during this period, but, appropriately, accompanying the King. So I don't think we should have any unit called Immortals in the scenario.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Ironically enough, the Ionian sea is west of Greece, whereas the actually Ionians were east, on the coast of Modern-day Turkey.

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Re: Immortals, again, the Persian sources know nothing of a unit known as 'the Immortals'. The royal guard is refered to as 'the companions' (which designation the Macedonians apparently nicked). More to the point, a royal guard unit would not have been present in the far west of the Empire during this period, but, appropriately, accompanying the King. So I don't think we should have any unit called Immortals in the scenario.

The Last Conformist is quite right. In fact, the 'Immortals' no longer existed by the time of the Pelopponesian Wars.

Please forgive this shameless plug.....

Originally posted by Kryten, a long, long time ago
You know, in reality, the Persian Immortal was never as good as Civ3 portrays them. Here is a brief history of this unit:-
First, they were formed about 530 BC, and disappeared after 479 BC, so only existed for some 50 years (or just two Civ3 turns!).
Second, there were just 10,000 of them, no more, no less. This is less than 5% of the total Persian army.
Third, they were destroyed by Athenian & Spartan Hoplites at the battle of Plataea in 479 BC.
Lastly, rather than reforming them, the Persians hired Greek Hoplites instead.
When Alexander the Great invaded Asia Minor in 334 BC for example, he faced some 20,000 Mercenary Hoplites at the battle of Granicus, and 30,000 a year later at the battle of Issus, but NO ‘Immortals’, because they had disappeared almost 150 years earlier.

Soooo...how did the Greeks defeat them, why were they not rebuilt, and why did the Persians use mercenaries instead?
The reason is obvious....Greek Mercenary Hoplites WERE BETTER!

(Taken from THIS thread. )

 

[The Last Conformist]

To Kryten's excellent exposition, we might add that the "Immortals" were, to judge from Herodotus's description, equipped as sparabara - a type of infantry which after the Graeco-Persian wars was replaced by heavier-equipped takabara, which in turn, by all accounts, were still not the equal of hoplites, still less of Macedonian phalangites.

 

[mrtn]

Ok, I don't know enough about this period in time, but is it so that Sparta and athens was locked in a war, but both where at peace with Persia most of the time?
If that is the case then it is important what starting techs Persia get, relative Sparta and Athens. I'm thinking of the Napoleonic Conquest, where Britain gets a naval tech from the start. It is very easy for the British player to give this tech to all the other players, for an alliance against France.
It would probably not be good if the Spartan player could do something similar...

 

[LouLong]

Actually the Spartans tried to drag the Persians (either the Sardis governor or the entire empire) into declaring war against Athens. Athens of course used that to show to the rest of the Greek world the felony of Sparta becoming a possible against nature ally of the Persians and used that to tighten its grip on some Ionian cities (that were indeed very close to the possible danger).

 

[The Last Conformist]

Sparta and Athens were at war for most of the period, but there actually was a kind-of peace during the years 421-414.

Persia didn't enter the war openly, but during the later phase supported the Spartans with massive subsidies, as well as generally making a nuissance of herself on the diplomatic scene.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Kryten, yeah, I've read that before (I just didn't remember any details about when they dissapeared, only that they were gone by the time of Alexander).

BTW, although Heroditus didn't like to mention it, there were many Greek Mercenaries used by Persia in their invasion as well (I assume they were from Ionia, but they could easily have joined after Xerxes entered Greece as well).

Since Immortals aren't being used, you could always use them as regular Persian infantry (Like I mentioned, don't use the one with the sword, use the one with the spear).

I think it would be great if Persia had a Persian looking Archer as well (since their Archers were better than their Infantry).

Also, they had a lare cavalry force (which happened to be effective at Platea), comprising of 20% of their army at the time of Cyrus. I don't know of any Persian Cavalry anyone made (I notice I'm thinking of ideas of stuff that don't exist, instead of using what you have, but that's why I'm giving ideas, not making the scenario )

Here's an idea, though. Persia had a great ability to raise troops from all across their lands (and from multiple nationalities) quickly, so maybe they should start with the ability to draft units.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Persian Cavalry would be a wonderful unit! Kryten is busybusybusy! I'm going to announce my descsion on the wonder tomorrow...After that, we're moving onto the topic of techs.

NOW! XEN-How goes the map?What was that you said over 2 weeks ago? "I'll give you what I have done by friday, I swear!" You don't need to turn it in, I just desperately wanna know which territory is fleshed out. My offer still stands: If it's too much for you, just say so, and I can take it off your hands until you can start working on it again.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Kryten's Horse Archer doesn't look quite Persian, but its similar. Kryten, how difficult would it be to give a more Persian style cloathing to the unit? (Sort of like what the Immortal wears, maybe not that kind of pants).

 

[Kryten]

Hmmm....well, baggy trousers were the trademark of the Persians, while the Greeks would laugh at any man in trousers instead of a decent skirt....odd how times have chaged isn't it
(NOT anecdotal I hasten to add!).

Soooo, adding baggy trousers, changing the saddlecloth from civ colour blue to brown in order to make those trousers stand out a bit, and lastly giving him Persian style headgear:-

 

[Amenhotep7]

NICE!...Is it done, or is there much more to do on that horse archer?

 

[The Last Conformist]

Kryten is ... Kryten.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Revised List o' wonders:
Great Theatre
Oracle of Dodona
Oracle of Delphi
Statue of Zeus
Olympic Games
Spartan Military Code or Agoge
Parthenon (bye bye Temple of Athena)
Long Walls of Piraeus
*Erechthleum (courtesy of Greek-Stud to replace Acropolis)
Mines of Amphipolis
Marble Quarries of Thasos
Great Port of Byzantium
Delian Treasury
Great Harbor
*Spartan Defense
*Council of Ephors or Great Rhetra
*Isthmian Ship Track (Maybe a better name)

*The ones with stars may be destroyed...Some of the Spartan ones might be destroyed because things like the Council of Ephors and Spartan Defense would already be represented in gameplay/governmments.

Edit: Darn it! I may have to PM Xen, or start making my own map!

 

[The Last Conformist]

Are we using LM Mountain for anything? If not, it could be pressganged to serve for other important mines; Laurium comes to mind.

Can you have putting a mine on something yield a commerce bonus, BTW? If yes, that gives some interesting opportunities for pillaging such sites ...

 

[Amenhotep7]

I think it's possible...In Xen's absence, I've been messing around, making my own map until he comes back...So I'm using the editor as I type...I'll letcha know...

Edit: What's LM mountain???

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
...Can you have putting a mine on something yield a commerce bonus, BTW? If yes, that gives some interesting opportunities for pillaging such sites ...

I very much doubt it. But in LM Terrain you decide the commerce bonus, so you should be able to crank that up high, so that when you build a road you get 10 commerce, or something like that. On normal mountains you'd still only get 1 commerce per road.

 

[Amenhotep7]

The holidays are coming, and I'm certain I'm getting C3C, so I (or Xen) wil be able to make this map for C3C, so we'll use Landmark terrain.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
...Edit: What's LM mountain???

Landmark terrain, it's a new feature in C3C, you might have noticed the "cedars of lebanon" in the mesopotamian conquest.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Nah, I don't have C3C yet...