Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread

[Amenhotep7]

cal-
you'd win w/ victory points...Or conquest of the Peloponnesian League if ur Athens and vice versa...Once I get c3c :santa:

 

[The Last Conformist]

Effectively, Rome will be just another barbarian civ languishing in an unimportant corner of the map.

 

[Pangur Bán]

The Peloponessian War is supposed to be about Athens versus Sparta, not the east-central Mediterranean as a whole in that era. You should rename the scenario.

If you want the scenario to be about the Peloponnesian War, then you should limit the scope to Central and Sourthern Greece, Macedonia, the Islands, Ionia and Sicily. You can include Persia as well.

The scenario should be about Athens and Sparta...the scenario will not work in terms of playability if you have the likes of Cyrene and Carthage running away with the victory points.

The most important things to discuss are the strategic interests involved. I'd like to know what sort of vision you have for implementing these? What do you think they were? How will you incorporate them into the game?

 

[Amenhotep7]

Well, this is wonderful, but if we were to do that, we'd have to make a custom map, or leave a huge blank spot. As I said, I'll just make those civs "neutral" and therefore they will not vy for control of the Victory Locations.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Effectively, Rome will be just another barbarian civ languishing in an unimportant corner of the map.

I can't see the point of having it then. After all, it kills the tilme of the slow AI, it'll take up more downloading time, it'll waste the time of those designing the scenario and it'll make the scenario less realistic. The more you add to these kinds of scenarios, the harder it is to focus the scenario and the less effective it becomes as a scenario.

That's just my opinion though. You are all, as you know, free to disagree and debate the matter

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by calgacus
The Peloponessian War is supposed to be about Athens versus Sparta, not the east-central Mediterranean as a whole in that era. You should rename the scenario.

If you want the scenario to be about the Peloponnesian War, then you should limit the scope to Central and Sourthern Greece, Macedonia, the Islands, Ionia and Sicily. You can include Persia as well.

The scenario should be about Athens and Sparta...the scenario will not work in terms of playability if you have the likes of Cyrene and Carthage running away with the victory points.

The most important things to discuss are the strategic interests involved. I'd like to know what sort of vision you have for implementing these? What do you think they were? How will you incorporate them into the game?

A)that dosent make use of the entire map- it will look sloppy to have "new Syracuses" all thw way up to Eturia...

B)minor nations, such as Etruia took part in the war

also...

NEW WONDER IDEA!
this is why i decided to post in the thread- sorry about the mao guys, but, if you click on a certain link in my sig, I dont have as much time to devote to this stuff anymore (not that I in thins case, would mind you )

any way here is the wonder-

Hippocrotes school of medicine

any wya, here is the idea- the whole small wonder where your units heal in enymy territory is trashed- this has the combinated result-

A)the city it located in (Cos IIRC, though that may just be Hippocates' home town) VERY valuble

B)it could have the result of the limited greek campaining seaon- Spring and Summer, and with drawing during the fall, and winter months

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by calgacus


I can't see the point of having it then. After all, it kills the tilme of the slow AI, it'll take up more downloading time, it'll waste the time of those designing the scenario and it'll make the scenario less realistic. The more you add to these kinds of scenarios, the harder it is to focus the scenario and the less effective it becomes as a scenario.

That's just my opinion though. You are all, as you know, free to disagree and debate the matter

its NOT the number of civs that slows down a game, its the size of the map

 

[Amenhotep7]

Xen is back! Calloo! Callay![dance]
Xen-You seem very busy. Please, we'll include you in the credits, and you'll have a big request off your shoulders if you just send me the map. I'll finish it off for you. Just email me with the file. (Email button on top of my posts.)

 

[The Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Xen


its NOT the number of civs that slows down a game, its the size of the map

All my experience directly contradicts that. For instance, I had a game on humongous map with 31 civs, in which turn times became unbearable, till I culled couple dozen civs, and the turn times went down to practically nothing. Note that the number of cities stayed essentially constant, and the number of units only fell moderately.

What's the current civ count, BTW? On my system, turn times tend to become annoying with more than about 16 civs.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
Well, this is wonderful, but if we were to do that, we'd have to make a custom map, or leave a huge blank spot. As I said, I'll just make those civs "neutral" and therefore they will not vy for control of the Victory Locations.

Well, if you want to use that map, it isn't so difficult. Just leave it blank and prevent the construction of settlers. Or create certain terrain that's unpassable, or just make a better map


What are the victory locations? How much are they worth in terms of victory point? How many victory points do you need to win the game? What will be the other sources of victory points operational in the scenario?

In reality, all either side had to do was starve break up the other's alliance system and starve the other polis into surrender and the war was won. How do you plan to simulate that. It's alright discussing such niceties as leader names and borders of Rome, Carthage and Etruria in the period; but the scenario should be about the Peloponnesian War and the strategic issues involved.

1) How will you simulate Sparta's miniscule manpower
2) How will you simulate Athens dependence on Black Sea grain trade
3) How will you simulate Sparta's struggle to gain a fleet?
4) How will you simulate the almost inpregnability of cities to the warfare of the Period
5) How will you simualte the Persian intervention, baring in mind the limited options in the editor
6) What kinds of potential nerve centre strategic blows with you include?
7) How will you simulate the Spartan occupation of Decelea?
8) How will you simulate the Athenian occupation of Sphacteria?
9) How will you make use of culture flips, baring in mind Sparta's cultural backwardness?
10) How will you make the Peloponnesus almost totally inaccessible to the Athenians?
11) How will you cut the proliferation of military units?
12) Are you going to have settlers in the game?

Just a few questions there I'd like to here your thoughts on.



I'd still very much like to know what strategic issues you think were involved in the war?

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Xen


A)that dosent make use of the entire map- it will look sloppy to have "new Syracuses" all thw way up to Eturia...

For God's sake Xen. You should be thinking about the other ways to prevent that, rather than just assuming that the only other way is to fill the world with cities and civs that are of no strategic relevance to the war.

Originally posted by Xen


A)that dosent make use of the entire map- it will look sloppy to have "new Syracuses" all thw way up to Eturia...

B)minor nations, such as Etruia took part in the war

Really? I don't recall that...what was the scale of their involvement?

Originally posted by Xen


NEW WONDER IDEA!
this is why i decided to post in the thread- sorry about the mao guys, but, if you click on a certain link in my sig, I dont have as much time to devote to this stuff anymore (not that I in thins case, would mind you )

Hippocrotes school of medicine

any wya, here is the idea- the whole small wonder where your units heal in enymy territory is trashed- this has the combinated result-

This is a waste of time. Such things played no role in the war...
That suggestion is pure fiction.

 

[Pangur Bán]

The war between Athens and Sparta was an localized Aegean War, with occassional points of significance in the wider east-central Mediterranean. These wider points, however, are only relevant in so far as they can be made to bare an impact in the Aegean and, much, mucg more especially, in the southern part of modern Greece.

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by calgacus


Well, if you want to use that map, it isn't so difficult. Just leave it blank and prevent the construction of settlers. Or create certain terrain that's unpassable, or just make a better map

you mean a map which south italy as a big island

[/B][/QUOTE]
What are the victory locations? How much are they worth in terms of victory point? How many victory points do you need to win the game? What will be the other sources of victory points operational in the scenario?[/B][/QUOTE]
VP locations are basically the major cites, Like Athens, Sparta, Thebes, Corith, Syaracuse, Byzantium (for Black Sea trade), and other wonder containing cities in the Athenian Empire


[/B][/QUOTE]
In reality, all either side had to do was starve break up the other's alliance system and starve the other polis into surrender and the war was won. How do you plan to simulate that. It's alright discussing such niceties as leader names and borders of Rome, Carthage and Etruria in the period; but the scenario should be about the Peloponnesian War and the strategic issues involved. [/B][/QUOTE]

you cant, thats why we have military units, to attack cities

Originally posted by calgacus

1) How will you simulate Sparta's miniscule manpower

expesive units

Originally posted by calgacus

2) How will you simulate Athens dependence on Black Sea grain trade

Byzantium as a source of seveal reources, and the major gateway to trade would be a good start, that way, if the Spartans capture it, Athens will be territorially cut-off

Originally posted by calgacus

3) How will you simulate Sparta's struggle to gain a fleet?

weak, expenisive sea units would be a start

Originally posted by calgacus

4) How will you simulate the almost inpregnability of cities to the warfare of the Period

walls. big ones.

Originally posted by calgacus

5) How will you simualte the Persian intervention, baring in mind the limited options in the editor

weak units

Originally posted by calgacus

6) What kinds of potential nerve centre strategic blows with you include?

well aside from capturing wonders, there is no real way to represent it

Originally posted by calgacus

7) How will you simulate the Spartan occupation of Decelea?

dont know if it has been discussed

Originally posted by calgacus

8) How will you simulate the Athenian occupation of Sphacteria?

dont know if it has been discussed

Originally posted by calgacus

9) How will you make use of culture flips, baring in mind Sparta's cultural backwardness?

Most Athenian cities dont border Spartan ones, and Corinth is a cultural mecca

Originally posted by calgacus

10) How will you make the Peloponnesus almost totally inaccessible to the Athenians?

its called Corinth

Originally posted by calgacus

11) How will you cut the proliferation of military units?

added cost would be a nice thing, as well as added upkeep

Originally posted by calgacus

12) Are you going to have settlers in the game?

yes Colonies, Like the Athenian colony at Thury, were still being establishe in the period, and just prior to it

Originally posted by calgacus

I'd still very much like to know what strategic issues you think were involved in the war?

ask Kryten

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by calgacus


For God's sake Xen. You should be thinking about the other ways to prevent that, rather than just assuming that the only other way is to fill the world with cities and civs that are of no strategic relevance to the war.

I dont care, they have the potential to make the scenaior more FUN

Originally posted by calgacus

Really? I don't recall that...what was the scale of their involvement?

Eturia aided the Athenian attempt in invadeing Syracuse

Originally posted by calgacus

This is a waste of time. Such things played no role in the war...
That suggestion is pure fiction.

so you are denying the FACT that most of Greek warfare (I'm sure ther were exceptions) was based on a seasonal time scale?

hell, if we dont have wonders to make vity locatons important, why dont we just ditch the whole F*cking project?

 

[Pangur Bán]

Lots of interesting answers - and smart-assed answers too. The interesting ones probably need to be thought about a wee bittie more.

For Corinth. In reality, you can enter the Peloponese without taking Corinth. Read a little about the Corinthian War and you'll discover that. The key to blocking Attica-Peloponnesus access was the Megarid. Megara was of astronomical strategic value.

For Units, cost is good. I'd suggest manpower too.

You didn't really answer Question One however. The Spartan warrior class was superior, but very finite. My suggestion is that they are placed in the game but are not buildable. That way, if they lose them, they are gfinished forever. They will be great units, but one should protect them very well.

Growth of the town of Sparta should be zero.

FOR colonies. I have to say no. Just because they were in the period, doesn't mean they should be in the game. We have to focus on the war. The game gives them infinitely more strategic relevance than they actually had.

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by calgacus
Lots of interesting answers - and smart-assed answers too. The interesting ones probably need to be thought about a wee bittie more.

I dont have much of a reputation for being the nice, occasional poster anymore

Originally posted by calgacus

For Corinth. In reality, you can enter the Peloponese without taking Corinth. Read a little about the Corinthian War and you'll discover that. The key to blocking Attica-Peloponnesus access was the Megarid. Megara was of astronomical strategic value.

the key to designing a scenario is to stop thinking like a historian, and to start thinking like a game designer, but keeping the facts of the matter holy- as such, having Corinth as the master of the peloponessus dose two things-

A)keeps Athens from marching in land units

B)triggers Athens to do what they did historically- have a big navy, to transoprt foot troops (in addition, the Athenian UU will be a hoplite with the marine ability)

Originally posted by calgacus

For Units, cost is good. I'd suggest manpower too.

for some units, like the SPartiate, this would be good, but not for all, if citizens were required for all the units, or even just all the hoplites, everyones cities would be reduced to 1 population before turn 20

Originally posted by calgacus

You didn't really answer Question One however. The Spartan warrior class was superior, but very finite. My suggestion is that they are placed in the game but are not buildable. That way, if they lose them, they are gfinished forever. They will be great units, but one should protect them very well.

Originally posted by calgacus

Growth of the town of Sparta should be zero.

this would unbalence the game, perhaps a low growth value, but not zero

Originally posted by calgacus

FOR colonies. I have to say no. Just because they were in the period, doesn't mean they should be in the game. We have to focus on the war. The game gives them infinitely more strategic relevance than they actually had.

not when most of the land is already settled- this way, to found a new colony in someones territory would require them goin to war...

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Xen


I dont care, they have the potential to make the scenaior more FUN

But the scenario's supposed to be about the Peloponnesian War.
Your ideas would be fine, but in a different scenario.

Originally posted by Xen



Eturia aided the Athenian attempt in invadeing Syracuse

Do you mind backing that up with some evidence? What was the extent of their aid? Do you really think it justifies their inclusion in the scenario?

Originally posted by Xen


so you are denying the FACT that most of Greek warfare (I'm sure ther were exceptions) was based on a seasonal time scale?

No. But Hippocratic schools of medicine played no frigging role

Originally posted by Xen


hell, if we dont have wonders to make vity locatons important, why dont we just ditch the whole F*cking project?

Try to become a broad thinker Xen. You are constantly approaching this as an either-or case, when it probably isn't.

I didn't say there should be no wonders. I only saying that the wonders that there are should be relevant. How do we determine this, you might ask?

Well, think about what the communities of Athens and Sparta spent their resources on during the war,and how did this become relevant. One example might be, the Spartans spent a lot of time courting Persia. Persian gold allowed the Spartans to acquired ships and sailors, and win the war at sea. Perhap this could be simulated by a wonder called "Persian Alliance" that provides free war and transport ships every turn/year/whatever.

I'm not dismissing wonders. I'm just trying to get the scenario focused on the war itself and on playabilty.

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by calgacus


But the scenario's supposed to be about the Peloponnesian War.
Your ideas would be fine, but in a different scenario.

part of the peloponesian war was how other staes were acting with the greek cities, and the results those actions, not to mention, an all important factor of trade

Originally posted by calgacus

Do you mind backing that up with some evidence? What was the extent of their aid? Do you really think it justifies their inclusion in the scenario?

Three fleets of pentecontors, that enough support?

Originally posted by calgacus

No. But Hippocratic schools of medicine played no frigging role

no, but unless you have a better suggestion to give Atheina cites badlly needed importance, as well as have a neat wonder in the game

Originally posted by calgacus

Try to become a broad thinker Xen. You are constantly approaching this as an either-or case, when it probably isn't.

I dare say it is you who need to think more broadlly- you keep approching this as all Athens or Sparta- it wasnt- other states, indipendt of the two interacted as well, such as Macedon,Thebes, Syracuse, ect...

also, you NEED to read through the thread- if you did you would know the scenario ALSO covers the period of time all the way up the macedonian domican over greece- and is a VERY nice set up to the still in production Alexander the great sceanio by Kryten

Originally posted by calgacus

I didn't say there should be no wonders. I only saying that the wonders that there are should be relevant. How do we determine this, you might ask?

wonders are needed both to boost individual city importance, and trying to get players to go not after a nations capitals, but rather the supporting cities as primary targets,Athens and Sparta will also have defence improvments to aid those lone cites from attack

Originally posted by calgacus

Well, think about what the communities of Athens and Sparta spent their resources on during the war,and how did this become relevant. One example might be, the Spartans spent a lot of time courting Persia. Persian gold allowed the Spartans to acquired ships and sailors, and win the war at sea. Perhap this could be simulated by a wonder called "Persian Alliance" that provides free war and transport ships every turn/year/whatever.

I like that idea (remember, just because I usually act like a bastard dosent mean I really mean to sound so mean )

Originally posted by calgacus

I'm not dismissing wonders. I'm just trying to get the scenario focused on the war itself and on playabilty.

to focus in the war, you need to focus on all aspects of it- history is already fit to be a game, you just have to interpet, and implemnt it right

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Xen

1) I dont have much of a reputation for being the nice, occasional poster anymore


2) the key to designing a scenario is to stop thinking like a historian, and to start thinking like a game designer, but keeping the facts of the matter holy- as such, having Corinth as the master of the peloponessus dose two things-

A)keeps Athens from marching in land units

B)triggers Athens to do what they did historically- have a big navy, to transoprt foot troops (in addition, the Athenian UU will be a hoplite with the marine ability)



3) for some units, like the SPartiate, this would be good, but not for all, if citizens were required for all the units, or even just all the hoplites, everyones cities would be reduced to 1 population before turn 20


4) this would unbalence the game, perhaps a low growth value, but not zero


5) not when most of the land is already settled- this way, to found a new colony in someones territory would require them goin to war...

1) This is a scenario community. I think you should put more mental effort into being constructive, because the other way will not get the scenario anywhere

2) I am fortunate enough to have studied this war in depth, although some time ago. I think it is unfair to criticize me for thinking like a historian at the expense of playability, since I really am focussing on playability. The fact that you agree that playability is more important please me on the one hand. On the other, I'm now confused as to why you want to include such cumbersome irrelevances like Cyrene, Etruria and Roma.

3) That may be a price worth paying. The main limitations on warfare in this period were: 1) Geography 2) Topography 3) Manpower. All three have to be taken very seriously. "Units" took up a serious part of the population. In the most drastic circumstances, all men had to fight. Citizens were (part-time) warriors by definition. My proposal links historical accuracy and playability well.

4) You should stop assuming that simple objections like that close arguments. There are usually many alternatives.You could simply balance things out appropriately.

5) Are you suggesting then that Athenian-Spartan colonial rivalry formed a major part of the war and its causes. Since Sparta founded only one colony in its history, this would seem to be odd.

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by calgacus



1) This is a scenario community. I think you should put more mental effort into being constructive, because the other way will not get the scenario anywhere

the're all use to my B*tching

Originally posted by calgacus

2) I am fortunate enough to have studied this war in depth, although some time ago. I think it is unfair to criticize me for thinking like a historian at the expense of playability, since I really am focussing on playability. The fact that you agree that playability is more important please me on the one hand. On the other, I'm now confused as to why you want to include such cumbersome irrelevances like Cyrene, Etruria and Roma.

because the sceanrio is not to replay history, but to recreate it- what worth is the scenario if it has a set peice ending? we have to add the what if- even the extreamlly unlikelly ones

Originally posted by calgacus

3) That may be a price worth paying. The main limitations on warfare in this period were: 1) Geography 2) Topography 3) Manpower. All three have to be taken very seriously. "Units" took up a serious part of the population. In the most drastic circumstances, all men had to fight. Citizens were (part-time) warriors by definition. My proposal links historical accuracy and playability well.

if you would read through the thread, and see our reasoning, you migth see that we have come to our conclusions for a reason- feel free to make objhections, but please read our resonings for why we decided what we have

Originally posted by calgacus

4) You should stop assuming that simple objections like that close arguments. There are usually many alternatives.You could simply balance things out appropriately.

I knw they dont close argument- its jusy a bit repetitive as this has all been discussed before

Originally posted by calgacus

5) Are you suggesting then that Athenian-Spartan colonial rivalry formed a major part of the war and its causes. Since Sparta founded only one colony in its history, this would seem to be odd.

Just beacuse Athens and Sparta hardley founded anything dosent mean the other nations didnt- we have to think about ALL OF THEM- not just Athens and Sparta