MarcusSaurono
Warlord
How close is this to finish and is there a beta?
Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread
- Thread starter Amenhotep7
- Start date
Greek Stud
Prince
Holy Moly! I haven't been away for that long. Ya'll write alot. Some of it seems productive, some seems like spam. I just stopped by to see what's up, so I guess this is more like spam.
Everyone seems to be doing a great job. I'll be around ever so often just to open my loud Mediterranian mouth. OPA!
Everyone seems to be doing a great job. I'll be around ever so often just to open my loud Mediterranian mouth. OPA!
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Wonderful to see you again, Greek Stud.
Marcus- The major projects we have after finding out wonder effects is a tech tree and units. Most of the units, according to Kryten, are nearly done. We'll have a beta test in about a month, is my estimate. Don't worry, we'll create a beta test thread.
Marcus- The major projects we have after finding out wonder effects is a tech tree and units. Most of the units, according to Kryten, are nearly done. We'll have a beta test in about a month, is my estimate. Don't worry, we'll create a beta test thread.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
I think one extra commerce per sea tile is good for the Isthmian Ship Track. But did you consider my suggestion re: veteran ships:
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Hmm...You have a point...And when it came to the sea, the SPartans' only real foothold was in the gulf of Corinth...The thing is, LC, is that both Lysander's Navy and Persian Alliance have similar effects. We want Sparta to be up to par with the Delian League, not outnumbering 3 to 1!!!
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
I didn't mean it should auto-produce units - only that it should make naval units built there Veteran (à la Harbour in Epic game), and have it the only thing available at start for the Peloponnesians that does that. The Athenians would get a unique improvement - 'Naval Yard', say - that produces Veteran naval units, available at start, and prebuilt in various places.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Oh! I misread.
Yeah, I think we can agree to that...But I'd like the "+1 gold per sea square" effect to be in Persian Alliance or Isthmain Ship Track.
Yeah, I think we can agree to that...But I'd like the "+1 gold per sea square" effect to be in Persian Alliance or Isthmain Ship Track.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I agree about the Isthman Track producing Veteran ships.
Before the Peloponnesian War, Athens had the largest navy, Corcyra had the second largest (and convinced Athens to be able to join the Delian League so their ships don't get taken by Corinth to make the Peloponnesian Navy strong enough to rival Athens), and the third most powerful navy is the one of Corinth, who strongly wanted revenge against her disrespectful colony (Corcyra) and was trying to build a very powerful navy of her own.
I forgot exactly what my complaint about Italy is, but I do remember 2 cities not on the map, which Athens hoped to use as harbors for their navy, but were refused when they felt Athens could be intending to Conquer the west (Rhegium was a third city, but that's already on the map).
Another thing. Syracuse had a very significant Cavalry force (they had refused to prepare a navy, so Athens was able to sail into their harbor, but their Cavalry force was very effective in killing Athenian Workers who were trying to build a seige wall around the city. Athens couldn't stop them because they only brought 30 cavalry of their own).
Anyway, my complaint is, although Syracuse historically had this large cavalry force, there isn't a single Horse on all of Sicily.
Before the Peloponnesian War, Athens had the largest navy, Corcyra had the second largest (and convinced Athens to be able to join the Delian League so their ships don't get taken by Corinth to make the Peloponnesian Navy strong enough to rival Athens), and the third most powerful navy is the one of Corinth, who strongly wanted revenge against her disrespectful colony (Corcyra) and was trying to build a very powerful navy of her own.
I forgot exactly what my complaint about Italy is, but I do remember 2 cities not on the map, which Athens hoped to use as harbors for their navy, but were refused when they felt Athens could be intending to Conquer the west (Rhegium was a third city, but that's already on the map).
Another thing. Syracuse had a very significant Cavalry force (they had refused to prepare a navy, so Athens was able to sail into their harbor, but their Cavalry force was very effective in killing Athenian Workers who were trying to build a seige wall around the city. Athens couldn't stop them because they only brought 30 cavalry of their own).
Anyway, my complaint is, although Syracuse historically had this large cavalry force, there isn't a single Horse on all of Sicily.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Okay, so let's have Syracuse have access to horses, and let them start off with like, what...10 horse units?
I shall concede to what everybody wants for the Isthmain ship track.
I shall concede to what everybody wants for the Isthmain ship track.
hi. having read your posts and lets just say slightly incorrect info on the pelop. war 
i have some suggestions, i series:
sources
Primary Sources
this is good site for sources on the war and greek history in general, esp. Thuycidides, Plutarch (lysander, agis etc), as well as
Xenophon (Hellenica [personally i think the translation by Carlton L. Brownson, circa 1912-1918 is best] and the policy of the Athenians and the Spartans).
for hoplite warfare the link
Hoplite Experience
will give more info of the nature of the warfare, as well as some minor details on what the spartan hoplite actually looked like
Scale
the typical ragiment of the hoplite was usually 1200 men in strenth, as in this was the number usually deployed as a fielded force, or as a component unit in a much larger force. a sub unit can be considered to be 300 men; forces smaller than this were seldom used as this would severely limit thier tactical ability with view to doing damage to the enemy or even fighting in the hoplite scale. as such, it might be advisable to represent one unit, costing one population point when built (to reflect logistical support as well as citizen army concept) as 300 men who can rejoin a city, settle or be drafted.
at the start of the war, Athens alone had 300 ships, these were usually employed in groups of ~12, so maybe a scale of 1 to 12, where one ship can transport two regiments, ie 2400 hoplite or 8 units, at 200 men per ship would be realistic.
also, hoplite forces were seldom wiped out, as the heavy armour prevented real slaughter after a battle by weight and the exhaustion of the men after a fight in such conditions (see link above) and as such it might be advisable to provide four unit armies al low cost to reflect leaders and to simulate the afore mentioned points, as well as representing the 'rugby-scrum' nature of hoplite warfare.
with view to cities, the typical greek setlements nombered about 20,000-40,000 male and female inhabitants (i exclude slaves as the only add production, and cannot be cosidred to be active citizens, except poss. in Athens (policy, Xenop.) except for Athens, where during the war its population was almost a quater of a million in the city itself, and amost 50,000 in its sister city/port of pireaus. possibly can represent this with cities of pop. 10-20 for greece, and suburbs of athens inside its wall in a closely packed area representing the city, each making up the total number. to represent the grain from the black sea, special grain resource? at athens in side wall, with large pop paying taxes to represent thier riches, and reliance on the draft as in reality.
coming soon.....
Sparta - clarifications on numbers of men leaders, actual distinction in its society (i wrote this put accidently deleted it)
Athens - its armies, navy, the nature of the delian leauge (actually the Athenian empire)
The Allies - the lowdown
Technology - innovations over the course of the war
and anything else i think may help
PEACE
i have some suggestions, i series:sources
Primary Sources
this is good site for sources on the war and greek history in general, esp. Thuycidides, Plutarch (lysander, agis etc), as well as
Xenophon (Hellenica [personally i think the translation by Carlton L. Brownson, circa 1912-1918 is best] and the policy of the Athenians and the Spartans).
for hoplite warfare the link
Hoplite Experience
will give more info of the nature of the warfare, as well as some minor details on what the spartan hoplite actually looked like
Scale
the typical ragiment of the hoplite was usually 1200 men in strenth, as in this was the number usually deployed as a fielded force, or as a component unit in a much larger force. a sub unit can be considered to be 300 men; forces smaller than this were seldom used as this would severely limit thier tactical ability with view to doing damage to the enemy or even fighting in the hoplite scale. as such, it might be advisable to represent one unit, costing one population point when built (to reflect logistical support as well as citizen army concept) as 300 men who can rejoin a city, settle or be drafted.
at the start of the war, Athens alone had 300 ships, these were usually employed in groups of ~12, so maybe a scale of 1 to 12, where one ship can transport two regiments, ie 2400 hoplite or 8 units, at 200 men per ship would be realistic.
also, hoplite forces were seldom wiped out, as the heavy armour prevented real slaughter after a battle by weight and the exhaustion of the men after a fight in such conditions (see link above) and as such it might be advisable to provide four unit armies al low cost to reflect leaders and to simulate the afore mentioned points, as well as representing the 'rugby-scrum' nature of hoplite warfare.
with view to cities, the typical greek setlements nombered about 20,000-40,000 male and female inhabitants (i exclude slaves as the only add production, and cannot be cosidred to be active citizens, except poss. in Athens (policy, Xenop.) except for Athens, where during the war its population was almost a quater of a million in the city itself, and amost 50,000 in its sister city/port of pireaus. possibly can represent this with cities of pop. 10-20 for greece, and suburbs of athens inside its wall in a closely packed area representing the city, each making up the total number. to represent the grain from the black sea, special grain resource? at athens in side wall, with large pop paying taxes to represent thier riches, and reliance on the draft as in reality.
coming soon.....
Sparta - clarifications on numbers of men leaders, actual distinction in its society (i wrote this put accidently deleted it)
Athens - its armies, navy, the nature of the delian leauge (actually the Athenian empire)
The Allies - the lowdown
Technology - innovations over the course of the war
and anything else i think may help
PEACE
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Welcome, Kasai! Thank you very much for contributing to this project! We hope to work with you in the future! Thank you, once again!
Thank you, once again!Part II: Sparta
The Spartiate (sp.?)
the Spartan Homioioi (equals, again sp.?)
the actual Spartans, numbering about 10,000 to 12,000 men at thier peak, and thier best the 300 Hippagretai, or masters of the horse, who are the Spartans of the Thermopyle fame. There was actually compition between the former and the latter due simply enough to fact that the latter had been chosen and actually they would come to blows over the matter but thats a diggresion to the point at hand.
also, a semi indipendent tribe of Sparta, Scritae (sp.?), still of equals but fielding force of ~600 men in role of recconsaince for the main army, who would always hold the extreme right of the Spartans as well as screen thier forces on the march (ie. dispersed in front to keep eye out for the enemy)
the main advantage for the spartans was the quality if thier officers, and the rapidity with which they could mobilise an army, balanced by the finaite and irreplacable nature of thier man-power. this could be shown by providing the spartans with already mobilised (ie. already produced units) of a high cost to build, and of large numbers of ready made empty armies (enough for current units and more), balanced by fact that they only have wonders in thier cities to give basic culture ie. temples that Sparta was famous for, wonder for thier patriachy and army, for the helots and increased production, and a general need to have military police in the cities (Kriptea unit, ADMH 1:1:2:-2 Cost 10, start with 20?) to reflect a state under seige.
they can be cosidered an elite upon themselves, and simply the best soldiers and leaders of a cosistant quality that any Greek state could field, and i believe it could (with view to article 1 [my last post]) be reflected in the following manner:
Spartan Hoplite: 40 Units ADMH 7:7:2:+2 Blitz Foot Golden
all as roads
cost 15 pop 1
Hippas. : 1 Unit ADMH 14:14:4:+4 Blitz Foot Golden
all as roads
cost 25 pop 1
Scritae : 2 Unit ADMH 6:6:3:+1 Blitz Foot Golden
all as roads
cost 20 pop 1
Kriptea : ~15-20 (no. of cites etc.) 1:1:2:-2 all as roads
stlth. fast
(as secret police to let army deploy) cost 20 pop 1
the high values represent fact that they were never defeated in hoplite conflict; actually they owned. even vs. the Thesbian sacred band of 50 ranks deep they still held thier own with thier 8 ranks due to sheer physical prowess, they lost out when thebes had ranks of 150+, outflanked them and the Spatan poulation was diminished from cotinuos (sp.?) warfare.
Hippas were the elite of these men who held Thermopyle, while killing ~20,000 and wounding 50,000 more, as such they have high attack and defence. move speed because they made way to Thermopyle in three days from Sparta (Herodoctus).
Scritae as less attack, more move as they were the reconnasaince troops, and as such would most of the time be dipersed in the field.
the attack and defence values are the same as the hoplite was the premier formation of war in the period, anyone other than another hoplite they came to grips with would simply be slaughtered (armies of 30,000 literally massacared egyptian armies of 200,000+ [Herodoctus])
Periokoi
those who dwell around; 40-50,000 represent as thier draft unit, same as greeks of other cities (avg. infantry).
as Sparta will need cities producing tax to maintain its army, you should only be able to recruit these forces for short periods only.
ADMH 4:4:1:+0 Foot (roads?) (no gold age) cost 5 pop 1
standard values, no bonus, no gold age as they not homioio (sp?)
Helots
100,000 - 120,000 slaves, not represented on screen but as workers, wonder to give production as state slaves. recruit as helots hoplites, poor cannon fooder to fill the ranks, low cost build, no pop cost:
ADMH 2:2:2:-1 Foot all as roads no gold cost 2/1?
poor health as beaten underfed, high speed as beaten to work
The Spartiate (sp.?)
the Spartan Homioioi (equals, again sp.?)
the actual Spartans, numbering about 10,000 to 12,000 men at thier peak, and thier best the 300 Hippagretai, or masters of the horse, who are the Spartans of the Thermopyle fame. There was actually compition between the former and the latter due simply enough to fact that the latter had been chosen and actually they would come to blows over the matter but thats a diggresion to the point at hand.
also, a semi indipendent tribe of Sparta, Scritae (sp.?), still of equals but fielding force of ~600 men in role of recconsaince for the main army, who would always hold the extreme right of the Spartans as well as screen thier forces on the march (ie. dispersed in front to keep eye out for the enemy)
the main advantage for the spartans was the quality if thier officers, and the rapidity with which they could mobilise an army, balanced by the finaite and irreplacable nature of thier man-power. this could be shown by providing the spartans with already mobilised (ie. already produced units) of a high cost to build, and of large numbers of ready made empty armies (enough for current units and more), balanced by fact that they only have wonders in thier cities to give basic culture ie. temples that Sparta was famous for, wonder for thier patriachy and army, for the helots and increased production, and a general need to have military police in the cities (Kriptea unit, ADMH 1:1:2:-2 Cost 10, start with 20?) to reflect a state under seige.
they can be cosidered an elite upon themselves, and simply the best soldiers and leaders of a cosistant quality that any Greek state could field, and i believe it could (with view to article 1 [my last post]) be reflected in the following manner:
Spartan Hoplite: 40 Units ADMH 7:7:2:+2 Blitz Foot Golden
all as roads
cost 15 pop 1
Hippas. : 1 Unit ADMH 14:14:4:+4 Blitz Foot Golden
all as roads
cost 25 pop 1
Scritae : 2 Unit ADMH 6:6:3:+1 Blitz Foot Golden
all as roads
cost 20 pop 1
Kriptea : ~15-20 (no. of cites etc.) 1:1:2:-2 all as roads
stlth. fast
(as secret police to let army deploy) cost 20 pop 1
the high values represent fact that they were never defeated in hoplite conflict; actually they owned. even vs. the Thesbian sacred band of 50 ranks deep they still held thier own with thier 8 ranks due to sheer physical prowess, they lost out when thebes had ranks of 150+, outflanked them and the Spatan poulation was diminished from cotinuos (sp.?) warfare.
Hippas were the elite of these men who held Thermopyle, while killing ~20,000 and wounding 50,000 more, as such they have high attack and defence. move speed because they made way to Thermopyle in three days from Sparta (Herodoctus).
Scritae as less attack, more move as they were the reconnasaince troops, and as such would most of the time be dipersed in the field.
the attack and defence values are the same as the hoplite was the premier formation of war in the period, anyone other than another hoplite they came to grips with would simply be slaughtered (armies of 30,000 literally massacared egyptian armies of 200,000+ [Herodoctus])
Periokoi
those who dwell around; 40-50,000 represent as thier draft unit, same as greeks of other cities (avg. infantry).
as Sparta will need cities producing tax to maintain its army, you should only be able to recruit these forces for short periods only.
ADMH 4:4:1:+0 Foot (roads?) (no gold age) cost 5 pop 1
standard values, no bonus, no gold age as they not homioio (sp?)
Helots
100,000 - 120,000 slaves, not represented on screen but as workers, wonder to give production as state slaves. recruit as helots hoplites, poor cannon fooder to fill the ranks, low cost build, no pop cost:
ADMH 2:2:2:-1 Foot all as roads no gold cost 2/1?
poor health as beaten underfed, high speed as beaten to work
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
OK, here is my full list of complaints about the map. I also tried and play the map a bit to see how it would turn out. I remember playing as Athens, Thebes, and Macedon, but I don't remember playing as Sparta.
Typos, or spelling that are different:
Rhegium not Reggium
Camarina not Kamarina
Catana not Catana
Epidamnus not Epidamos
Appallonia not Appallonia Epidamou (This one isn't a big deal because there is another Appallonia somewhere else)
Anactorium not Anaktorium
Naupactus not Naupaktos
Oenadae not Oinidai
Stratus not Stratos
City changes (both names and locations). I'll save Sicily for later. (when I get a screenshot, and double check who owned what).
Have Taras, not Tarentum (I don't know about this, but Taras was a city that refused to help Athens on the Sicilian campaign).
Locri not Mystia (this one I'm a little more confident about. Although they are about as involved as Taras was, at least I've never heard of Mystia)
Now, for mainland Greece (this isn't as big a deal, as there are already so many cities).
Basically, I rearanged some cities to add a couple of Spartan cities to the west.
Also, playing as Thebes, I realized that they have the crappiest start in the game. My suggestion is to give them Delphi, as Delphi was friendly with the Peloponnesian cities (and it is right next to Thebes).
Typos, or spelling that are different:
Rhegium not Reggium
Camarina not Kamarina
Catana not Catana
Epidamnus not Epidamos
Appallonia not Appallonia Epidamou (This one isn't a big deal because there is another Appallonia somewhere else)
Anactorium not Anaktorium
Naupactus not Naupaktos
Oenadae not Oinidai
Stratus not Stratos
City changes (both names and locations). I'll save Sicily for later. (when I get a screenshot, and double check who owned what).
Have Taras, not Tarentum (I don't know about this, but Taras was a city that refused to help Athens on the Sicilian campaign).
Locri not Mystia (this one I'm a little more confident about. Although they are about as involved as Taras was, at least I've never heard of Mystia)
Now, for mainland Greece (this isn't as big a deal, as there are already so many cities).
Basically, I rearanged some cities to add a couple of Spartan cities to the west.
Also, playing as Thebes, I realized that they have the crappiest start in the game. My suggestion is to give them Delphi, as Delphi was friendly with the Peloponnesian cities (and it is right next to Thebes).
Delphi was also freindlyl to Athens during war, in fact, it was friendltl toi everybody, as it was a neutral shrine city growing rich off of the peoples want for divinations of the future- both Athens and Spaata made large contributions to beautifing, and elveing a mark on Delphi...
as for the spelling "corrections"- they are superficial at best- the only differnce is I have them in native greek, while you would prefer them in Latin, IMO, it dosent realyl matter
as for Sparta- can you really expect them to be able to produce anything useful with so many cities cramped close together like that?
as for the spelling "corrections"- they are superficial at best- the only differnce is I have them in native greek, while you would prefer them in Latin, IMO, it dosent realyl matter
as for Sparta- can you really expect them to be able to produce anything useful with so many cities cramped close together like that?
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I just realized that those city names are hard to read.
They are:
Anactorium (same place as it was before)
Sollium (other side of straight)
Astracus (below Sollium)
Leucras (Left of Astracus, on island)
Cephalleonica (island in Lower left corner).
Sollium, Leucras, and Cephallenica were all taken by Athens during the first year of the war.
The Athenian cities are a bit easier to read. I didn't do much but move Stratus further west.
I don't know if this is a good idea, I did it to limit Athens points (Thebes points at the begining of the game are around 120, Athens has points a lot closer to 2828).
They are:
Anactorium (same place as it was before)
Sollium (other side of straight)
Astracus (below Sollium)
Leucras (Left of Astracus, on island)
Cephalleonica (island in Lower left corner).
Sollium, Leucras, and Cephallenica were all taken by Athens during the first year of the war.
The Athenian cities are a bit easier to read. I didn't do much but move Stratus further west.
I don't know if this is a good idea, I did it to limit Athens points (Thebes points at the begining of the game are around 120, Athens has points a lot closer to 2828).
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Before, Athens had all of this part of mainland Greece (except a few islands).
You are right about the cities being crowded together. I guess I was trying to cram in too many.
You are right about the cities being crowded together. I guess I was trying to cram in too many.
also, I think you should my main justifaction for making the cities as I did- you will notice, when lookin at tme, I was actually gernerous in Giving Thebes territory
http://www.slitherine.co.uk/spartan/images/GCMap.jpg
http://www.slitherine.co.uk/spartan/images/GCMap.jpg
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