Peloponnesian War Scenario -- Phase Two

[The Last Conformist]

Well, never heard of that King Hanno, but I'm no carthagologist.

I think both Carthage and Crete could go in the unnamed gov't - it's basically meant to be weaker than the main Greek factions, without being reduced to barbarian status (barbarian in the modern sense - I'm not suggesting the Carthaginians spoke Greek!)

 

[Louis XXIV]

I would make all Oligarchies have Forced Labor and Communal Corruption.

I wouldn't give Sparta Xenophobia, because there were times when they were accepted with open arms as the liberator of the Greeks (of course, Athens didn't do this, and rebelled against Spartan rule).

Is Worker Rate of 1 normal or slow? Oligarchy should definately be normal, and maybe Spartan Oligarchy could get a boost (so those terrified Helots won't get killed for not working hard enough). You might want to allow Athens to stop rebellions with military police (MP of 1)

Also, you forgot the army size.

I would say

Democracy: None (Athens had a large treasury and income, but was dead broke at the end of the war).
Oligarchy: 6/6/6 (Give the Boetians a large army for their size)
Spartan Oligarchy: 6/6/6
Tribal Federation: 2/3/5
Monarchy: 2/4/6

Macedon should be a Monarchy, IMO (I know their leader was King Perdiccas), but Tribal Federation might work. Monarchies probably should have payed labor, but I'm thinking of the Great King of Persia, not the King of Macedon.

Rome could be a Republic, but it could just as easily be an Oligarchy. Carthage's government was similar to Rome's (assuming they weren't in control by a tyrant at this time), but I never remembered hearing it refered to as a Republic.

Thessally, Thrace, any other barbarian in Norther Greece should be in Tribal gov, Sicily is a democracy, Italic Greeks are either Democratic or Oligarchic (I can't remember), Etruria would be an Oligarchy (I think ).

That's about it.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I didn't forget army size - I was merely not doing it!

Worker rate of one is slow. I was under the mistaken impression it was normal, however, so I'll be editting my suggestions on the preceeding page.

Why should Oligarchies have Communal corruption?

I've already said why I don't want to have Sparta have Forced Labour, but I seem to be getting voted down.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Thessaly wasn't barbarian, BTW. They're Greeks.

 

[Amenhotep7]

I hate Forced Labour. Besides, Forced Labor takes 1 population, and since helots weren't considered citizens...

 

[Louis XXIV]

Sparta had no money to rush anything. If you want to prevent them from rushing something, go ahead and give them payed rushing.

Thesally is Greek, but their additude seemed to be a bit more barbarian.

The Spartan colony in that region (pretty much the only Spartan colony, so I don't know why I can't remember its name) was constantly under attack by Thessally. Any Spartan army that tried to march to the Hellespoint through their territory would be attacked.

I guess I shouldn't have grouped them with the barbarians, but I was merely suggesting anyone in Northern Greece to have that government. Except for Macedon, so I guess Thessally could be excluded as well. But I don't know what government they had.

 

[The Last Conformist]

During the later stages of the war, the Spartans comparatively speaking swam in cash, thanks to Persian support.

But I'm advocating Paid Labour on grounds of playability, not realism. Leaving them with Forced Labour would, I believe, make them to weak.

The Thessalians had a very loose confederation in the late 5th C, with a single elected leader, called IIRC the tagos, who didn't have terribly much power. The individual cities had aristocratic/oligarchical local government. I certainly could see them in the Tribal Federation gov't - it's intended to cripple civs, and Thessaly wasn't very effective politically in this period.

But shall I take it that, except for the Spartan Oligarchy's hurry method, people are pretty much happy with Demo, Sparta Oli, Oli, Tribal Fed, and Monarchy? Well, Louis asked for Communal corruption on Oligarchy - I don't see why, but is anyone else agreeing with him?

I'm, for the record, basically happy with Louis' suggestions for military support. Playtesting may change the picture, of course.

I guess the big outstanding then is non-barbarian "minor" civs. Plunk them all into Oligarchy? Invent a name for the Nameless Gov't? Perhaps Monarchy for Macedon?

 

[Louis XXIV]

I'm trying to find the original reason. Maybe not having Communal would be fine as well.

 

[Louis XXIV]

OK, I figured out the reason, I suggested it. Unfortunately, I can't remember the reason I did (I've just been assuming it would be Communal since I suggested it on page 4 out of 48 in the old thread).

Minimal for Sparta, nusance for regular Oligarchy is fine.

 

[Amenhotep7]

the Spartans had the majority of production done with helots, and they weren't official citizens, therefore the forced labor penalty is moot.

 

[Amenhotep7]

So...Now that we have govts outta the way...Wanna discuss anthing else? Hopefully Kryten will post previews soon!

 

[Amenhotep7]

Well somebody's gotta jump-start this thread! Idea: Why not have somebody actually make the tech tree into the scenario now? Meaning actually go into the editor and put the techs in the right spot.

If nobody else will, I will, it's just that I've no experience, so it'd take longer.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Bump? O well, I guess I'll do it.

Man, all we need is Kryten, and then we'll have those units!Grr...

 

[Louis XXIV]

I wish I knew where he was, though.

 

[Amenhotep7]

He said he was lazy and didn't do the units FOR THE WHOLE MONTH OF JANUARY!

But thn he said that he felt like he was letting everyone down, so he decided to try and fill ALL of his requests in Februaury.

 

[Louis XXIV]

That's a lot of work. Its a shame cut and paste takes so damn long

 

[Amenhotep7]

Okay, this darn thread needs a jump-statrt, and I'm the man to do it! *plays heroic music*

GRAPHICS:

What I need is your opinion on the gfx you want used for:
Wonders (dig up thread one and try to name them specifically. I'll do it later.)
Leaderheads
City Gfx
Tech Icons
Civpedia Icons (For things like govts, etc.)

I hope this works!

 

[Louis XXIV]

How about these?:

Athens

Sparta

You could also look through the rest of the ATG mod and see if they have anything of use for other civs.
http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewforum.php?f=92

Someone should get Alexander, You could use Xerxes to represent the Great King of Persia, Ceasar can go to Rome, Hannibal to Carthage, and there are a few Barbarian type leaderheads to consider as well. Don't forget the leaderhead that was made for this mod (I can't find it anymore, but that's just a minor setback ). There's also a blond Alexander if you want that .

Edit, found Unexisted's leaderhead

 

[The Last Conformist]

Ouch. I'm the "NOT the graphics person" person.

Did we reach a conclusion on gov'ts?

 

[Amenhotep7]

Ouch. I'm the "NOT the graphics person" person.

Que?

Yes, we have reached a conclusion.