People are ALLOWED to criticize.

[Cilpot]

lemmy101: Thank you for that post.

 

[ytswy]

See, the problem I have with all the haters is this:

How about a bit of tact? This is the single biggest thing I dislike about this forum since Civ 5's announcement. I work as a game developer (or rather worked, I went indie because I was sick of the commercial games industry) and let me tell you something. In my experience, when you work on a game, you read EVERYTHING. Every review, and thousands of forum posts. Firaxis people will read these forums, and surely out of respect for them and the wonderful years of gaming they've brought you, you could try and be a bit more tactful in expressing your disappointment?

I worked on a little ol' game called Driver 3. Yeah, it sucked. It also took 3 years of MASSIVELY HARD graft, where you end up alienating your friends and family due to working so many late nights, sleep deprived and stressed to hell. You're so close to the game you're working on you start to lose the ability to tell whether what you're working on is good or bad. You do your best and the game goes out there... despite better judgement you scour the internet daily, google alerts, refresh, refresh.... looking for some validation from the gamers for all your hard work... to make you know the toll it took was all worthwhile.

I still remember when I read the savage 5.4 IGN review one night on my PC. I was in tears. It cut really deep. I can't imagine what it would feel like to read some of the stuff that's said on this forum.

I know critisism is useful, and Firaxis will obviously count on user feedback both positive and negative but jesus. "Greg and Elizabeth have betrayed us all!" "I wish I could go back in time and give the UI designer an abortion" "Petition to have Elizabeth sacked!" To name but a few that spring to mind, but undoubtedly not the worst.

It makes me ashamed to be a Civ fan.

This is why we get pissed off with the haters. Sure you don't like it, but others do, and despite the fact that apparently Firaxis made something that doesn't quite fit your tastes it still is, objectively, an EXCELLENT game whether or not it's an excellent game which has gone in a direction you personally don't approve of. How about you show Firaxis, and all the people who put so much hard work and passion into the game, a little respect?

Obviously this doesn't apply to every one of the haters, but an upsettingly large proportion. The vile things I've read on this forum should never be read by someone who have hardly seen their girlfriend for the past six months because they've been slaving away doing a ton of (unpaid, almost definitely) overtime trying to make something you'll enjoy. It's not right. It makes us want to fight back hard against all the haters to show our support, and THIS is why the OP gets the reaction he does.

I guarantee your 'hard earned money' that you've put into this is not a dot compared to what they put into it. Sure you have rights. But where's their right not to be personally attacked and insulted over what are, at the end of the day, rather trivial and objective differences in opinion in game design? The difference between me and them is, they would get into trouble for responding to the hate, even though I bet every ounce of their beings want to respond and defend themselves. But in that situation you just can't, you just have to sit back and take it on the chin, 'don't let it get to you' and hope the next thing you read is positive.

So if I get a little defensive and annoyed when people make flippant hurtful remarks that go way beyond constructive criticism, or use unnecessarily violent and hate-filled language, this is why. I know how negative reactions to stuff you work on feels, and I've never read anything 1/10th as bad about my stuff than I've read on here about Civ and Firaxis. Yet some of the stuff I've worked on probably deserve such scorn a lot more than Firaxis, one of the best developers that gamers could possibly ask for, ever could.

'nuf said.

Absolutely bang on.

There is an art to successfully complaining about something, and it starts with being polite to the person you are complaining to. Don't act like they have just run over your dog.

 

[Senethro]

See, the problem I have with all the haters is this:

How about a bit of tact? This is the single biggest thing I dislike about this forum since Civ 5's announcement. I work as a game developer (or rather worked, I went indie because I was sick of the commercial games industry) and let me tell you something. In my experience, when you work on a game, you read EVERYTHING. Every review, and thousands of forum posts. Firaxis people will read these forums, and surely out of respect for them and the wonderful years of gaming they've brought you, you could try and be a bit more tactful in expressing your disappointment?

I worked on a little ol' game called Driver 3. Yeah, it sucked. It also took 3 years of MASSIVELY HARD graft, where you end up alienating your friends and family due to working so many late nights, sleep deprived and stressed to hell. You're so close to the game you're working on you start to lose the ability to tell whether what you're working on is good or bad. You do your best and the game goes out there... despite better judgement you scour the internet daily, google alerts, refresh, refresh.... looking for some validation from the gamers for all your hard work... to make you know the toll it took was all worthwhile.

I still remember when I read the savage 5.4 IGN review one night on my PC. I was in tears. It cut really deep. I can't imagine what it would feel like to read some of the stuff that's said on this forum.

I know critisism is useful, and Firaxis will obviously count on user feedback both positive and negative but jesus. "Greg and Elizabeth have betrayed us all!" "I wish I could go back in time and give the UI designer an abortion" "Petition to have Elizabeth sacked!" To name but a few that spring to mind, but undoubtedly not the worst.

It makes me ashamed to be a Civ fan.

This is why we get pissed off with the haters. Sure you don't like it, but others do, and despite the fact that apparently Firaxis made something that doesn't quite fit your tastes it still is, objectively, an EXCELLENT game whether or not it's an excellent game which has gone in a direction you personally don't approve of. How about you show Firaxis, and all the people who put so much hard work and passion into the game, a little respect?

Obviously this doesn't apply to every one of the haters, but an upsettingly large proportion. The vile things I've read on this forum should never be read by someone who have hardly seen their girlfriend for the past six months because they've been slaving away doing a ton of (unpaid, almost definitely) overtime trying to make something you'll enjoy. It's not right. It makes us want to fight back hard against all the haters to show our support, and THIS is why the OP gets the reaction he does.

I guarantee your 'hard earned money' that you've put into this is not a dot compared to what they put into it. Sure you have rights. But where's their right not to be personally attacked and insulted over what are, at the end of the day, rather trivial and objective differences in opinion in game design? The difference between me and them is, they would get into trouble for responding to the hate, even though I bet every ounce of their beings want to respond and defend themselves. But in that situation you just can't, you just have to sit back and take it on the chin, 'don't let it get to you' and hope the next thing you read is positive.

So if I get a little defensive and annoyed when people make flippant hurtful remarks that go way beyond constructive criticism, or use unnecessarily violent and hate-filled language, this is why. I know how negative reactions to stuff you work on feels, and I've never read anything 1/10th as bad about my stuff than I've read on here about Civ and Firaxis. Yet some of the stuff I've worked on probably deserve such scorn a lot more than Firaxis, one of the best developers that gamers could possibly ask for, ever could.

'nuf said.

Quoting again. This is a post the whole forum needs to read. I've been called troll or fanboy often enough but really I see myself as sticking up for the developers.

 

[bhavv]

Quite simply, whether people like the game or not, the 'no refund policy' on all steam games is a complete joke.

If people buy something and they dont like it, they should be allowed to return it for a refund.

 

[lemmy101]

Since when have you been able to exchange PC games lately? Ever since multiplayer registered CD keys came in PC games have been exempt for returns in all game retail stores I've been to in the past 5-10 years. Regardless of whether the game in question is multiplayer online or not.

I wouldn't have been able to return Civ 4 to a retail game store, so you're moaning about something that happened 5-10 years ago that had nothing to do with Valve or Firaxis and quietly sidestepping the post above with a complete non-argument.

 

[Senethro]

Quite simply, whether people like the game or not, the 'no refund policy' on all steam games is a complete joke.

If people buy something and they dont like it, they should be allowed to return it for a refund.

It would be nice, but thats what demos are for.

Since when have you been able to exchange PC games lately? Ever since multiplayer registered CD keys came in PC games have been exempt for returns in all game retail stores I've been to in the past 5 years. Regardless of whether the game is multiplayer online or not.

I wouldn't have been able to return Civ 4 to a retail game store, so you're moaning about something that happened 5-10 years ago.

Yeah, I've been amazed that people have successfully reported getting refunds. No refunds for PC games is a year old thing. The CD-Key resellers are an example why they can't offer it.

 

[bhavv]

It would be nice, but thats what demos are for.



Yeah, I've been amazed that people have successfully reported getting refunds. No refunds for PC games is a year old thing. The CD-Key resellers are an example why they can't offer it.

I'm more amazed that people can accept this as being fine. All new products that are sold are meant to have a refundable period, I really cant understand why games get an exception to that rule.

 

[lemmy101]

because then anyone who bought ever bought a PC game may end up typing their multiplayer CD key in and getting told it's 'already in use'. Surely it's obvious why PC games are an exception to the rule?

Of course it would be nice, but by their very nature retailers HAVE to except PC games in this way. That's why demos exist. If you buy a game without due care and attention and you don't like it or it doesn't run, you have no one to blame but yourself.

I like how non-refunds (a 10 year old issue with PC games) has become the issue of the day now, and my above post has just become old news without any acknowledgement from the other side. Goes to show there really isn't any valid counter to it, really.

 

[dannythefool]

I'm more amazed that people can accept this as being fine. All new products that are sold are meant to have a refundable period, I really cant understand why games get an exception to that rule.

There is a demo version! Use it. You're not forced to pre-order.

Also, this is different depending on where you live. I'm in Germany so I can choose to order from Amazon (or any other online vendor), and then I will have two weeks to return the game after receiving it, and Amazon has to take the loss if it can't be sold again due to some stupid DRM scheme. If more countries had legislation like that then maybe there would be some more pressure from vendors to cut this sort of thing out.

 

[krzysp]

I worked on a little ol' game called Driver 3. Yeah, it sucked. It also took 3 years of MASSIVELY HARD graft, where you end up alienating your friends and family due to working so many late nights, sleep deprived and stressed to hell. You're so close to the game you're working on you start to lose the ability to tell whether what you're working on is good or bad. You do your best and the game goes out there... despite better judgement you scour the internet daily, google alerts, refresh, refresh.... looking for some validation from the gamers for all your hard work... to make you know the toll it took was all worthwhile.

And this applies to all developers. It's really hard to put things together considering everything costs money. At the end [usually] the pressure is big to wrap up the project and release since... you know it costs money.

Many good guys out there were working overnights so that civ 5 fans would have a less buggy game and this is what they get

 

[ytswy]

I'm more amazed that people can accept this as being fine. All new products that are sold are meant to have a refundable period, I really cant understand why games get an exception to that rule.

It's a fair point. In the UK you get a 7 day window to claim a no fault refund on anything you buy mail order/ecommerce. Software is excluded, along with music, films etc. I believe from fear that people would pirate it. Which seems a little silly, given how easy it is to pirate stuff on the internet.

That said, I sell things for a living, and I know I generally believe that the right and proper state of affairs is one in which I have the money and the customer has the goods So I don't exactly blame Steam for their attitude... They will give refunds if you can't get a game to work on your system I believe.

 

[-axs-]

Originally Posted by lemmy101
I still remember when I read the savage 5.4 IGN review one night on my PC. I was in tears. It cut really deep. I can't imagine what it would feel like to read some of the stuff that's said on this forum.

The artists involved in the development of movies, music, literature, and food all receive constructive and unconstructive criticism for the work they produce. In fact, being an art critic (in all its forms) is a profession for many people.

Why should the game industry be treated differently? If pressed, everyone agree's that constructive criticism is better than the non-constructive kind, and non-constructive criticism can hurt. But even the harshest criticizms I've read in this forum aren't close to the cutting criticisms consistently levelled at other works of art. That's the industry your in, it's part of your job to brush it off.

It's unfortunate that the games industry doesn't have the great tradition of professional criticism that other art industries have. In the world of the game review, a score of 5 is unplayable, and 8 is pretty average. This massive skew toward the top percentiles creates reviews gushing with praise (how else can these high scores be justified?). Many of the people who subsequently purchase these inflated works are left with a feeling that they've been conned, and attempt to find others who feel the same way. I believe if the game reviewers were given the freedom to be more objective, the average gamer would be satisfied that they were not alone and wouldn't need to post so many threads titled 'Does anyone else think [game] is bad?'

Finally,

Originally Posted by lemmy101
I guarantee your 'hard earned money' that you've put into this is not a dot compared to what they put into it.

This may be the least tactful sentence in the whole thread.

 

[CaptainBinky]

Obviously everyone's entitled to express their opinion even if expressed in a pretty harsh form - I don't think anyone's disputing that - it's just not terribly nice, especially in this industry since developer and consumer live together in fairly close proximity.

If you spout off nastily about a film on a film discussion board where the directors and writers are likely to hang out then it would be equally horrid.

Mostly when this sort of harshness is expressed, it's expressed in a corner somewhere where the people directly involved are unlikely to see.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Obviously everyone's entitled to express their opinion even if expressed in a pretty harsh form - I don't think anyone's disputing that - it's just not terribly nice...

It's also not terribly useful. The people working on Civ are reading this (and other) messageboards, because they want and need the feedback. After all, there are patches, expansion packs and further games to make.

And, as far as I see, we have a common goal: We all want the next product to be as good as possible.

By being rude and tactless, it is, however, much, much harder to get valid criticism across to other people and it is tiring and disheartening for the people at Firaxis. And that is not helpful at all.

So, sure, criticism: Yeah, sure. "Harsh"? "Harsh" would be pointing out problems and the reason why these are problems without wrapping it in sugar coating, being direct and to the point. It's absolutely possible to be harsh and polite at the same time. Most people, however, seem to confuse "harsh" with "rude and unconstructive".

Cheers, LT.

 

[lemmy101]

Why should the game industry be treated differently?

Did I say it should be? I'm just saying it hurts, and it does hurt. However post about 200 threads on the official M. Night Shyamalan forum that he's known to read regularly about how he should have been aborted at birth for The Last Airbender and I may say that's a step too far.

(I know this isn't technically the official Civ forum but it's as close as damn it)

This may be the least tactful sentence in the whole thread.

Don't be silly. Are you seriously telling me that $50 is worth more to you or ANYONE ELSE than 2-3-4-5 years of someone's life is to them? If it were, you wouldn't be spending any money on games, ever.

As I said, as a consumer of course you have rights. This isn't just some random dwelling on the internet, however. It's Civ Fanatics. It's one step away from Firaxis. It's populated by (apparent) Civ and Firaxis fans. Considering the massive steps they go to to liaise with the communities and the community sites and employing people purely to interact with them (who promptly get petitions posted to get them sacked) if they can't rely on a bit of support or at the very least a bit of tact from this place, where where can they rely on it from?

Hell, I could understand it if it was a turkey. It's not a turkey. There's no way on God's green one you could even begin to validly call this game a turkey. It may have gone in directions you don't approve of, but looking at the tragic mess of the Elementals release recently, is all this scorn and vile tongue lashing and militaristic feet stomping really justified?

By all means debate, point out the flaws, perhaps peppered with some positives for good measure and we'll have a nice jolly debate back and forth about our differing opinions. But why oh why be so extreme when anyone looking at it slightly objectively can see it is in no way a bad game.

Are there negatives in Civ 5? Course they are. I have a good list of things I dislike about it. Why haven't I posted about them? Perhaps I would have. I'd like nothing more to have posted my dislikes in the playthru thread I did.

Why didn't I? There's way too much hate around here, I don't want to add to it by being negative. As such I find myself being forced into a bias for the positive and end up coming across like a completely unobjective fan boy.

You guys did that to me. I do love the game a lot, but have no problem with discussing likes and dislikes, but when people start just wantonly stomping their feet and saying 'THIS IS A DISGRACE THEY SHOULD BE A SHAMED THE BUNCH OF ****'S' it just militarises the fans. Then you all have the gall to get on our case about us defending it, when one brief look at the topic titles in the discussion forum show that the vocal minority are completely going off on one as if they released a perpetually crashing version of pac man with a Civ badge on it.

 

[r_rolo1]

@lemmy101

What you said apply to both sides. It is true that some of the people complaining about the game are not exactly polished in their rants , but a lot of the people that are defending the game either don't pass of the "Me likes, grunt!" or are spouting stuff that would be enough for a bar fight in RL ( don't like like it? go play civ IV and stop complaining ... or worse )

If people were civil, things would be so diferent ...

 

[lemmy101]

So, sure, criticism: Yeah, sure. "Harsh"? "Harsh" would be pointing out problems and the reason why these are problems without wrapping it in sugar coating, being direct and to the point. It's absolutely possible to be harsh and polite at the same time. Most people, however, seem to confuse "harsh" with "rude and unconstructive".
Cheers, LT.

"THE UI DESIGNER SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABORTED AT BIRTH"
"PETITION TO GET ELIZABETH2K RECALLED"
"GREG AND ELIZABETH HAVE BETRAYED US ALL!"

Harsh AND Polite. You're right. Not at all rude or unconstructive. I take it ALL back.

I know not everyone is like this, but since they're in your camp we're the only ones combating this nasty nasty reprehensible stuff. They rile us up, and the innocent 'fair critics' of the game end up caught in the crossfire, meanwhile holding up a big freedom banner and saying 'hey us haters are entitled to our opinion' even though a lot of the opinions under that banner are bloody horrible and nasty and not helping anyone, least of all Firaxis,

 

[Lord Tirian]

Harsh AND Polite. You're right. Not at all rude or unconstructive. I take it ALL back.

Mwuh?

Isn't... that exactly what I'm arguing against? These unconstructive, useless and just inflammatory comments? And "my camp"? When did that happen?

Cheers, LT.

 

[lemmy101]

Oh tits. Sorry. I thought you were making the opposite point. I thought you meant we were misunderstanding 'polite and harsh' posts as being 'rude and unconstructive'. See this is exactly what I'm on about when everyone gets riled up. FRIENDLY FIRE!

(hug) I'm sorry.

(I've also been up all night Civvin so am a bit bonkers at the moment)

 

[Lord Tirian]

(hug) I'm sorry.

Eh, it's fine - I can see how one can read it both ways. Happy to have that cleared up!

Cheers, LT.