[R&F] Persian immortals seem very weak/buggy...

[Question]

They cant melee attack, so they are basically gimped archers. 25 ranged strength in the classical era cannot hurt swordsmen, horsemen or cities with walls.

Even if they had higher ranged strength, they dont get ranged promotions and their melee promotions dont seem to work for their ranged attack, although the battle screen suggests that it does (when you mouse over after clicking ranged attack, it will show the +7 bonus from battle cry, but it does not appear to work when determining damage).

You cant attack units via right click either...you have to manually click ranged attack to do so.

They dont appear to get the +5 bonus from great generals either...

Edit : According to CombatLog.csv, they do take bonuses from battlecry into account. But they dont appear to benefit from great generals for some reason...

Edit : Nevermind i think the better great generals mod is glitching out because timur isnt giving any of my units combat bonuses at all...

 

[Esperr]

They are an archer with the ranged strength of a swordsman almost, but they have a melee defence close to a swordsman. There promotions also buff there ranged attack even though they are melee promotions. There only real downside is that they can't take citys, they also don't require iron. There one of the better UU's in the game, especially considering Persia has no weak bonus, there just all good or better.

 

[bonafide11]

They are an archer with the ranged strength of a swordsman almost, but they have a melee defence close to a swordsman. There promotions also buff there ranged attack even though they are melee promotions. There only real downside is that they can't take citys, they also don't require iron. There one of the better UU's in the game, especially considering Persia has no weak bonus, there just all good or better.

I thought they changed it so they could take cities now?

 

[Civ_Gumby]

I thought they changed it so they could take cities now?

They can't melee any more, happened in the march update I think.

 

[OneMoreTurnPerTile]

They can't melee any more, happened in the march update I think.

Yup. Happened to me in the middle of a Persia domination game!

 

[liv]

so are they back to what they were originally?

 

[bonafide11]

They can't melee any more, happened in the march update I think.

Well that sucks, then they're a worthless unit again.

 

[Question]

The problem is partly the tech gap. Archers in the classical era have to go up against 36 strength swordsmen and horsemen. 25 strength vs 36 loses, especially since immortals dont get promotions that affect cavalry. They are hard countered by normal swordsmen who can tank their ranged attacks and kill them in melee, and horsemen are cheaper at 80 hammers vs 100 and will destroy immortals.

 

[Leyrann]

The problem is partly the tech gap. Archers in the classical era have to go up against 36 strength swordsmen and horsemen. 25 strength vs 36 loses, especially since immortals dont get promotions that affect cavalry. They are hard countered by normal swordsmen who can tank their ranged attacks and kill them in melee, and horsemen are cheaper at 80 hammers vs 100 and will destroy immortals.

25 vs 36 still means you're dealing free damage, just not as much. They're basically an archer that you can't kill by attacking them, because they have 30 melee strength rather than 15. 25 vs 36 ranged attacks and 36 vs 30 defense makes for a very close fight one on one, and I think the Immortal might win that, and in addition to that you can more easily focus units down and things like that because you have 2 range. Death of a thousand cuts is still death. Oh and of course you get to damage cities without them damaging you in return, which is a huge advantage in a Classical Era conquering spree. Just gotta have a Spearman or Heavy Chariot or something in the army to take the city once you got it to 0 health.

Also, Timur is a medieval Great General, which means he gives bonuses only to Medieval and Renaissance units. Right there in his tooltip and on the recruitment screen.

 

[Question]

Its not "free damage" unless the immortals cant get into melee range. Ive done the immortal vs horseman match up before, the immortals lose hard, they cannot kill the horsemen at range and they die in melee. And the immortals cost more.

 

[Equilin]

If you are fighting horses then why do so in open terrain (since rough terrain means it can move 2 hexes at most and you imply it moves more than 2 in a single turn).

 

[Pietato]

Its not "free damage" unless the immortals cant get into melee range. Ive done the immortal vs horseman match up before, the immortals lose hard, they cannot kill the horsemen at range and they die in melee. And the immortals cost more.

This seems false to me. Extremely false.

 

[Civ_Gumby]

This seems false to me. Extremely false.

Yeah I was thinking about it, blow for blow immortals do more damage. In open terrain horsemen will probably win because they inflict more damage per attack requiring less attacks to kill a unit. There are a lot of factors to take into account though. I can't do calculations without opening up the game and finding out how damaged units work.

 

[MIS]

The main problem I have with immortals is their lack of consistency with the civ. They are a great turtling unit, but Persia's raison d'etre is surprise war. Immortals would be much more thematic for e.g. Korea. Persia's UU should help with surprise war, e.g a horse-archer of some kind. For Persia, I might even prefer swordsman.

 

[bonafide11]

The main problem I have with immortals is their lack of consistency with the civ. They are a great turtling unit, but Persia's raison d'etre is surprise war. Immortals would be much more thematic for e.g. Korea. Persia's UU should help with surprise war, e.g a horse-archer of some kind. For Persia, I might even prefer swordsman.

Agreed, a bonus for declaring surprise wars but a unit that can't take cities? It doesn't make any sense.

 

[liv]

I never had a problem taking cities with the original immortal. I just remember it being easy. You just needed a scout or something.

 

[Esperr]

They are great in SP and even better in MP. They make invading Persia early pure misery.

 

[ZeroSuitSenpai]

It's aight Persia is still the best civ in the game.