Piety change

[SolDelta]

I still don't get what the issue is; intolerance between religions, leaving aside moral questions, has been not only supremely common on the world scene for the last 4000 years, but also supremely influential. The Crusades, the Israel-Palestine conflict, hell, even the War on Terror. And that's just talking about screwing up the Middle East, there are many more examples. It's not disrespectful to faith, it's being faithful to history.

That said, the Religious Intolerance policies effects on the game as stated so far sound really boring, and wouldn't tempt me to take that terrible policy. Personally, I just see it as a speedbump to getting to Reformation. A policy which helps with cultural production would do wonders for this policy tree; perhaps adding a flat culture amount every time a foreign missionary spreads their ideas in your land (Or you in their land)? That seems pretty tolerant and it makes sense, with all the new ideas being introduced, your nation is becoming much more culturally vibrant. It's still pretty awful, but a flat culture bonus from Shrines is already part of Ancestor Worship, and it provides a continual, tangible use for missionaries beyond the Founder belief.

 

[Daneh]

Well my opinion is that piety is there to strengthen religion (at least in the game) and you get the most out of religion if you spread it, also all of the ffounder beliefs are made for that (maybe except Interfaith dialogue, but its a pretty weak founder belief) so there is a mechanism in the game that tells you to spread you religion (let's say you have tithe - in my opinion the best follower belief - then you get the most out of it when you have a dominant "world" religion (there are also no world religion so it's is actually not historically corect to be able to have it voted by the world congress))

Its true religion is there to help you win civ5 but if you are not spreading it (which is actually hard) then you are not getting the most out of it. Again with tithe the more follower you have the more gold you have, so even that one follower in your city with a different religion is counterproductive in this case. Installing a system that goes against an already existing one would be a bit fail.

For historical accuracy, religious intolarance was part of most religion as others have stated already, and also religion was about power from like ancient times till the renaissance or so, it was also for selfintrest (good example the Church of England, which was founded so the king VIII. Henrik could get his hands on Church property and wealth and so he could remarry)

And you basically have a problem with the word "piety". But again piety is in the game to strengthen religion and religions were intolerant for a long time. Also because piety is an ancient policy tree i see no reason at all how Religious Freedom could be in that tree because let's be honest there was no Religious Freedom at ancient/classical/medieval times.

As for the gameplay, what piety needs is a culture/food bonus to be comperative with tradition/liberty, and that bonus should come early either from the opener or the first pickable policies. In my opinion piety needs a whole new system.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The point of religious tolerance (and the whole piety tree actually) is to give religious benefits that don't necessarily come from spreading your religion... (You can get a better religion, spend faith on religious buildings/ military units, holy sites, etc)

 

[fyar]

but the fact remains that the way religion is designed in this game, and the way the religious AIs in this game are set up, maximizing your own religion around the world at the expense of others is the core mechanic.

This has been repeated so many times in this thread, and it is simply not true. There are MANY mechanics in the religion game (not just that one policy, I daresay the majority of the religion mechanics) which are not about trying to eliminate every last non-believer. The supposed anti-synergy with Religious Tolerance is with a certain playstyle, not with the the religion mechanic. I've played that playstyle before too, but usually I'd rather spend my on other things that I believe help me win the game more: religious buildings, units, great persons, science buildings, missionaries (which are NOT anti-synergistic with Religious Tolerance because they're not about eliminating every last non-believer), etc.

I issued this challenge to someone else: Point me to one policy in the Piety tree that suggests your playstyle is the "core mechanic" for religion.

 

[fyar]

Its true religion is there to help you win civ5 but if you are not spreading it (which is actually hard) then you are not getting the most out of it.

Sure, that's one way to get the most out of Tithing (also my most frequent founder belief FWIW). But Tithes are just one part of the religion game. I can just as easily argue that the way to get the most out of your religion is to invest in pagodas, or great persons, or universities. If you put all your into prophets and inquisitors to accomplish your goal of maximal spreading, you'll have less for those other things.

For historical accuracy, religious intolarance was part of most religion as others have stated already, and also religion was about power from like ancient times till the renaissance or so, it was also for selfintrest

The nicest thing I can say about this is that it's a gross oversimplification of history and scholastically lazy.

And you basically have a problem with the word "piety". But again piety is in the game to strengthen religion and religions were intolerant for a long time. Also because piety is an ancient policy tree i see no reason at all how Religious Freedom could be in that tree because let's be honest there was no Religious Freedom at ancient/classical/medieval times.

Now, the nicest thing I can say is that this is absolutely, indisputably false and is either a willing ignorance of history or a deliberate revision of it.

As for the gameplay, what piety needs is a culture/food bonus to be comperative with tradition/liberty, and that bonus should come early either from the opener or the first pickable policies.

Well, we agree on something.

 

[Daneh]

To answer your qustion: it's not piety it's religion, piety is there to strengthen religion (you dont have to have it but then religion is stronger: reformation belief and what not) and as i stated before all the Founder beliefs (except maybe Interfaith dialogue - which is a weak one) promotes you to spread your religion with prophets/missionaries. There is also the pressure system which if you start early enough will snowball into eliminating other religions .

(i had immortal/deity games where i achived that i didnt have to do anything after a while, and all other cities were following my religion (the wonders from Theology are a big help for this))

Founder beliefs:
The goal is with Ceremonial burial, Church property, Peace loving, and Pilgrimage to have many cities following your religion and with Tithe, World church the goal is to have many followers and these can be achived by spreading your religion. And if you have Papal primacy then you should spread your religion to all the CS's. And with Initiation rites well you want to convert as many cities as you can with this.

So it's not really your goal to eliminate all the other religions but rather have the most cities/followers which may/will result in eliminating other religions because of the pressure system. That is if you want to get the most out of your founder beliefs

Also spreading your religion can help you a lot winning the game (having 80+ gold/turn at around turn 180-200 thanks to tithe is very good you can easily rushbuy buildings or buy city states or bribe the enemys to attack each other)

Naturally you can play it like you only have your own religion in your cities but then an AI will most likly send prophets/missionaries to rid you off of your horrible beliefs and help you find the one true god
(http://www.myconfinedspace.com/2013...t-our-lord-and-savior-neptune-god-of-the-sea/ )

Edit: Tell me when could you choose your religion let's say in Rome (Christians were actually persecutioned untill it became the main religion of rome (around 300-400 if i remember correctly) as far as i learned about it) (i am also a christian)

 

[Louis XXIV]

Regarding Piety meaning religious intolerance: I think that only makes sense if your religion preaches intolerance. While certainly true, the growing trend (progress?) is towards tolerance - even among religious communities.

As for improving the social policy. I think the lack of intuitiveness is the biggest thing. But it's also just difficult to use effectively. What about making the pantheons spread naturally through your territory (iirc, they don't naturally do that) or make them spread more quickly (if they do). Right now, the only way to use it is to spread a foreign religion. But sometimes the best Pantheon isn't from a civ with a full religion and, even if it was, you really just want the pantheon.

I could also see it allowing you to purchase missionaries of minority religions as an alternative.

 

[Babri]

The same was true of Islam. It spread by the sword and while the Ottoman Empire existed you saw peace in the Middle East among the most incohesive and most warring people of all time. Once the Ottoman Empire was dismantled in 1919 you saw constant conflict in the Middle East that still continues today. Without one cohesive religion ruling the land it all fell apart very quickly.

Saying that Islam was spread by sword is a huge misconception among some people in the West. If that was true then Indian subcontinent would mostly be Muslim. Similarly there are other examples such as Spain where Muslims ruled for centuries but did not forced anyone to change their religion.

Regarding the Piety tree balance issue I think they could make you choose another pantheon with religious tolerance. Encouraging to keep other religions in your cities might sound logical for religious tolerance but 1) It is random, something you can't control. And 2) it encourages you to keep other religions there whereas rest of the tree helps in establishing your religion as the most powerful & dominating one.

Another idea could be to let religious tolerance give some sort of happiness and/or gold boost. For example as history shows many Muslim rulers let the local population keep their religion. They only had to pay jizya tax for their protection (civilians that participate in city defence & poor/old/women are exempted from this tax). This not only created wealth for the state but it also led to people of different faiths living in relative harmony.


Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2

 

[isau]

Sure, that's one way to get the most out of Tithing (also my most frequent founder belief FWIW).

ALL of the Founder beliefs are based on how many cities you put them in. There is no competition between Tithe and Pagodas because Pagodas is not a Founder belief.

Here is the actual list of Founder beliefs. Every single one is based on how many cities you put them in, and with the sole exceptions of Initiation Rites and Interfaith Dialog, converting target cities away from a rival religion lowers the bonuses that owner gets. That is why the AI tries to spread religion to your cities and around the globe--it's to maximize bonuses for itself and harm other religions, not because it's a nice thing to do.

You can keep repeating that this is "insulting to people of faith" and your own personal definition of what the word "piety" means but that's wasn't a relevant argument from the beginning.


Here's the list of Follower beliefs:

Ceremonial burial: +1 Happiness for every City following this religion
(Changed in BNW: +1 Happiness for every 2 Cities following this religion)

Church property: +2 Gold for each City following this religion

Initiation rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this religion

Interfaith dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions

Papal primacy: +15 to Influence (Civ5) Influence resting point with City-States following this religion

Peace loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities

Pilgrimage: +2 Faith for each foreign City following this religion

Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion

World church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations



EDIT: Changed the word Follower to Founder.

 

[zukenft]

all this talk about religious in/tolerance but no actual discussion on improving piety in game? well, here's my take:
1. opener : also gives +1 faith from each city
2. organized religion : also gives extra spread to missionaries (stacks with the Djenne wonder).
3. mandate of heaven : also gives discount to faith-bought great people.
4. theocracy : also can faith buy shrine and temple.

religious tolerance actually should stay as it is. my reasoning is that each policy have one crappy tenet that you must take to get to the finisher. so for piety, this is the one that you must waste a policy off to get to the reformation belief. just buff the other tenets.

 

[Browd]

Moderator Action: Agree that folks on this thread need to talk more about the merits and demerits of various suggested changes to the Piety social policy tree and less about religious history. The latter is more appropriate in the World History forum: http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=43. Thanks.

 

[McSaucy4418]

all this talk about religious in/tolerance but no actual discussion on improving piety in game? well, here's my take:
1. opener : also gives +1 faith from each city
2. organized religion : also gives extra spread to missionaries (stacks with the Djenne wonder).
3. mandate of heaven : also gives discount to faith-bought great people.
4. theocracy : also can faith buy shrine and temple.

religious tolerance actually should stay as it is. my reasoning is that each policy have one crappy tenet that you must take to get to the finisher. so for piety, this is the one that you must waste a policy off to get to the reformation belief. just buff the other tenets.

The original post was a suggestion on how to improve Piety. I also disagree with your point that each tree should have a "crappy" policy so Piety should as well. Without getting in to the other trees why would advocate keeping a bad mechanic in the game? Lastly while I agree with the principle behind faith purchases of shrines and temples I doubt that would be necessary. I fail to see a situation in which you would have enough excess faith to use it on a shrine than a religious building (pagoda etc.) or great person.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I don't think it's necessarily true that each tree has a crappy policy. However, even if it were, it would be because the highs of the tree more than outweigh the negatives. I'm not convinced Piety falls under that category.

The finisher isn't even all that spectacular, imo, for Piety.

 

[isau]

In the past I've suggested that Piety get a bonus Spy/Diplomat in the finisher and the Prophet move to where Religious Tolerance is currently.

I'd also like to see the various Pantheons that generate Faith changed to something else and the Faith from determinative sources (shrines, temples, and Piety) buffed. IMO the faith generating Pantheons really throw the whole religion game. But I doubt that's a fight I'm going to win, and anyway it would take pages of writing to explain why I feel that having Faith in a Pantheon runs counter to the game's best interests.

 

[Greizer85]

I'd also like to see the various Pantheons that generate Faith changed to something else and the Faith from determinative sources (shrines, temples, and Piety) buffed. IMO the faith generating Pantheons really throw the whole religion game. But I doubt that's a fight I'm going to win, and anyway it would take pages of writing to explain why I feel that having Faith in a Pantheon runs counter to the game's best interests.

I'd rather there be more Pantheons that give Faith. +1 Faith from Plains Forests; +1 Faith from sea resources; +4 Faith from Mountains, etc. To compensate, the most useless Pantheons should be buffed to give other useful benefits. You'd have to weigh carefully whether you want Faith or something else from your Pantheon.

 

[Syailendra]

as stated many times since piety is moved to ancient era. It needs culture and foods input, instead to give 1 extra faith, shrines should be given 1 culture instead and put %growth somewhere to make it worth opening.

 

[isau]

FWIW, one change I've considered suggesting is a limiter on beliefs: you only get Pantheon beliefs in a city if you have a Shrine, and only get Religion beliefs (Follower 1, Follower 2, and Reformation) if you have a temple. That would be a huge buff to Piety. It would also mean that if you spread your religion to a neighbor that they then need to build shrines or temples of their own if they want to take advantage of it. If they don't, you get to keep leeching off with via your Founder beliefs and to loosely quote Willie Wonka "They get nothing."

Part of the problem right now is that Piety's link to the actual religion is remote. Because faith generation from city states and pantheons is way better than what you get out of Piety (at a huge gold cost at that) Tradition and Liberty players can often still beat you to the religion. Right now if you start in a desert you shouldn't be thinking "Ooh, I can go Piety and really take advantage of this." Instead it's "Ooh, I can skip Piety completely and get all the benefits of Tradition with very few tradeoffs." The Tradition player never needs to build a single temple but can still get the full benefits of the religion. Can the Piety player skip Aquaducts and Monuments and still expect their benefits? Nope. And meanwhile Tradition is significantly better at wonder grabbing Stonehenge or Hagia Sophia and claiming a religion with no faith investment.

In any case the gold cost of temples really needs to drop from 2 gold to 1 or the building needs to do more, even if Piety isn't buffed.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

From what I observe here, there are mentioned couple of things with which I agree :

• Going Piety should increase the chance of getting a religion a lot, (I even would say in most of the games more than half of he religions should be aquired by civs with piety policie(s) adopted early on, this would make it even a true decision adopting piety or another tree)

• Balance between faith from tiles awarded by pantheons vs faith from buildings should change more into the direction of the latter (I agree that some pantheons do require a change to accomplish this especially desert folklore, but most of them are okay)

• Piety should enhance religion (the way it is now doesn't need much changes, it already fulfills this role)

It won't change anything, but I think it is a pitty that faith acquisition isn't in a similar way as science/beakers. Faith is something from people/population and not something worked out of a desert or a mountain. Tiles should only enhance faith from population, like the religion buildings should. Most of the faith point should come from population.

 

[LastSword]

I will write something completely different.
Piety shouldn't enchance religion; Piety should be valid even without religion founded.

• Opener:
  • No longer reduces the time to build Shrines and Temples by 50%.
  • +1 Culture from Shrines and Temples.
  It's truely bad that this tree lacks Culture at all. "You can get culture from religion". I am also forced to take Happiness from religion since whole tree has none! I would say it is balanced with Tradition/Liberty openers.
• Organized religion
  • Add +50% production while building Shrine/Temple (half the current effect from opener)
• Mandate of heaven
  • No changes
• Theocracy
  • No changes
• Religious tolerance
  • Optional: pantheons of all religions in city; if needed.
• Reformation
  • Allows purchasing Scientific building with faith (current reformation belief).
  • Allows you to choose official religion (in religion UI), this religion will have + 10 (?) influnce per turn in every city. Missionaires of this religion are welcomed even if no open borders.
  It is now useless for Civs who lost the race.
• Finisher
  • Allows you buy any great person with faith.
  • Optional: remove free Great Prophet if needed.
  That's right, the only way to buy Great Person is to finish Piety. No longer Great Engineer from tradition, etc.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think Piety should give some advantages for getting a religion to be fair to civs like Byzantium. I do, however, agree that the bulk of it should be useful even if you didn't found a religion - helping you either get the most out of another religion or out of religious buildings.