Piety change

[KrikkitTwo]

Well I would

1. Opener... add +2 Faith from Capital to help ensure you get a religion (keep the rest)

2. Theocracy... +6 influence to your Religion Or Pantheon in all your cities

3. Religious Tolerance... All pantheon beliefs for religions/pantheons with 1 follower or more in the city AND +2 influence in each city to all religions with 1 follower in Any of your cities.

(Reformation belief balance change... receive a Reformation Belief When you found a religion (rather than if you have a religion)

 

[Polycrates]

Here's my thoughts on Piety...
I don't think it needs to be a viable "pure" opening tree like Tradition and Liberty, but is fine being one that you dip into alongside some policies from another tree.

For me the problem is twofold: there's too much religious benefit without Piety, and there's not enough religious benefit from Piety. Piety primarily boosts Shrines and Temples, but these are a terrible way of generating faith since they're so ludicrously expensive. I would like to reduce the benefit of being a passive bystander or minor dabbler, and increase the benefit of really investing heavily. A big part of this is increasing the importance of shrines and temples as the primary sources of faith.

I would do the following:
Cut down external sources of faith. Still really important, but no longer the major source of faith. Those who invest heavily in shrines and temples will have a much better chance of founding a religion, so it's a bit less of a crapshoot.

Desert folklore: Only faith from non-floodplain desert (or even just +2 faith from oases)
Stone circles: +1 faith from quarries (and maybe +1 science)
One with Nature: +2 faith from natural wonders
Tears of the gods: +1 faith +1 gold from gems and pearls
Natural wonders: halve faith output (some of these are huge)

Stele: -1 faith
Monastery, Mosque, Pagoda: -1 faith

Religious city-state faith reduced


Piety tree:

Opener: Allows you to build shrines, temples and the Grand Temple in half the usual time
Some day I want to actually build the Grand Temple.

Organised Religion: +1 faith from all religious buildings (shrine, temple, stele, cathedral, pagoda, monastery, mosque)
Just weaken the faith building snowball for non-Piety civs and sweeten the deal for those who go Piety.

Theocracy: +1 gold from all religious buildings (shrine, temple, stele, cathedral, pagoda, monastery, mosque). +1 local happiness from Temples in cities with a majority religion. Available as a second choice.
I think this is more useful than +25% gold from temples because it offsets the ridiculous maintenance cost of the buildings in the early game when you're actually building them (and the benefit isn't only in your financial centres). And an extra golden sweetener to the faith buildings for those who go Piety. Happiness from temples kinda duplicates one of the follower beliefs, but I feel like religions need a little extra happy and this lets you expand a little more without being railroaded into choosing a happiness religion and/or desperately needing Monarchy or Meritocracy.

Mandate of Heaven: 25% discount on purchases with faith
Bump it up a little to compensate for the lower amounts of faith floating around.

Religious tolerance: Gives the second pantheon belief in cities with a majority religion. Double faith generation from religious city-states.
To boost religious city-states back up in faith generation. I think it's fine to have this outside Patronage since the Patronage player will be much better at actually being friends/allies with the religious citystates.

Reformation: Reformation belief if you found a religion. New cities start with the majority religion of the city where the settler was built.
A small sweetener for those who didn't found a religion, and captures the vibe of the religious colonisation during the Reformation period.

Finisher: Free Great Prophet. Holy Sites give +3 culture, +3 gold
Pretty much fine as-is, just moved the Holy Site gold here so Theocracy isn't too strong.

 

[Kintara]

One nice thing about the Grand Temple is that it doubles religious pressure at the city. So it's nice if I have cities nearby that I want converted. Then I can focus on either spreading my religion further away, or just saving all my Faith for Holy Sites. It makes the religious pressure from trade routes pretty noticeable too.

 

[Liegence]

After playing a few Piety first games I would definitely not call it weak. More situational, perhaps. With the right Civ or a start favorable to a particular pantheon I would think it may be the best starting option.

There are a few Reformation beliefs that when used correctly can be crazy strong, potentially moreso than any other policy. Sacred Sites is the obvious one, but buying post industrial units (Shaka) or science buildings (Mayans) with faith are by no means weak options. 30% bonus to gold gifts to CS is nice, too. Combo with papal primacy and patronage and that's an easy diplo win.

On top of that, drop a few holy sites and the money and cultures comes rolling in (at +25% with a temple). The closer Great Prophet is icing on the cake.

So you still might have a hard time convincing me it is usually optimal over Tradition, but I actually think if Tradition, for whatever reason, isn't optimal than maybe you should look carefully at Piety when planning your VC.

I will say this, in the games I did play it made for a very nice change in pace compared to four city Trad.

 

[mlund]

I have to agree with the idea that the opener and Religious Freedom both need work.

I think that if you just mimic Tradition or Liberty openers then the Piety opener would work: +3 Faith in the capital or +1 Faith per city. Whatever. Just help get the ball rolling without immediately taxing you for hammers.

As to Religious Freedom: +1 Local Happiness and +1 Culture per religion (with 1 or more followers) in a city would kill two birds with one stone and actually give me a reason not to conquer and purge all the other Holy Cities on the globe to advance my Founder Belief benefits. I'd probably still bury that one annoying AI every game that spams Prophets and Missionaries in excess, but everyone else who isn't messing with my City State relationships can get a pass.

- Marty Lund

 

[SirWinston]

I like religious Tolerance ... you often chose your pantheon on the environment. "Desert Folklore" f.e. ... When you conquer someone who had a religion and you begin to spread your religion you still get the boni of the other religions pantheon. and spread it to all your cities (Messenger of Gods f.e.)
Or you can get Oral Tradition and Godess of Festivals in one City!

 

[aljung]

I like religious Tolerance ... you often chose your pantheon on the environment. "Desert Folklore" f.e. ... When you conquer someone who had a religion and you begin to spread your religion you still get the boni of the other religions pantheon. and spread it to all your cities (Messenger of Gods f.e.)
Or you can get Oral Tradition and Godess of Festivals in one City!

Agreed. Religious Tolerance is not bad - maybe a tad situational though. It can be a huge benefit but also useless. I would just change it to "you may choose a second belief/pantheon" (similar to byzantine bonus)

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Agreed. Religious Tolerance is not bad - maybe a tad situational though. It can be a huge benefit but also useless. I would just change it to "you may choose a second belief/pantheon" (similar to byzantine bonus)

For the situational... i would add to it
1. +2 pressure in all of your cities for any religion that has one or more followers in Any of your cities
2. have ALL pantheon beliefs with one or more followers count


(Then to balance it out give Theocracy +6 pressure to Your Religion/Pantheon in all of your cities.. so your religion will 'naturally' be dominant.. although easily overwhelmed by pressure from other cities/sources)

For the opener... add +2 Faith From Capital. (the 1/2 cost Shrines+Temples counts as a wide)

 

[player1 fanatic]

Here is how I would tweak Piety to be more competitive.

Organised Religion: exempt +1 faith from shrines and temples, add +1 culture from them too
Will help in gaining other policies

Theocracy: Exempt just +25% gold from temples, add +1 gold from shrines too, so that most cities benefit from this, not just commerce centres

Religious tolerance: Instead of just pantheon belief of 2nd religion in city, give also follower believes from 2nd religion. Also, have Prophets gain "tolerant" promotion (remove only 80% of other religions, when converting your own cities, rounded down). I think this could really bump up use of this policy, to something more then gimmick.


Opener and other policies should stay as is. They are good enough.

 

[Alziel]

Agreed. Religious Tolerance is not bad - maybe a tad situational though. It can be a huge benefit but also useless. I would just change it to "you may choose a second belief/pantheon" (similar to byzantine bonus)

I guess I've been lucky with Religious Tolerance - I've always reaped benefits from it in every game where I've chosen it, so I have no issue with it.

But I can certainly understand how the situational nature of it can mean that the opposite holds true (particularly on isolated starts/island maps).

 

[player1 fanatic]

Yep, religious tolerance is too situational. You need to get foreign religion that has pantheon that benefits your cities.

That's why I think it would be better, if you could gain follower beliefs of other religion too.