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Pikeman upgrade to Lancers?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Sharku, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. Bechhold

    Bechhold King

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    Because it's a tech away from the Industrial area and as others have said they are useless for two ages and pretty much a waste of time during the wait.
     
  2. Gali

    Gali Prince

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    Lyoncet the Persians had heavy cav before the Macedonian era, the greeks didn't Greece proper doesn't support heavy warhorses well as opposed to Persian access to much richer steppe lands. Persian calvary was the force that prevented Greek attack at Marathon for days, and its absence immediately caused the advance. The Greeks did not go north to support Thessaly and Beoetia in Xerxes invasion, even though they would have helped, because the plains there would allow for Persian cav to dominate. Macedonian calvary innovation was tactical. Heavy pinning infantry, which persians didn't have, and sudden decisive calvalry charge. It was Macedonian ability to match Greek style heavy infantry, with true heavy cav and disciplined proffesional troops that led to their dominance. When that pool of troops was weakened by overextension by diadochoi states, it fell to the disciplined, heavy infantry of Rome. That Middle eastern heavy cav tradition is shown with catapracht.

    As for the pikeman tolancer that is fine. BY the time it shows up you have access to musketman to replace your frontline and enough exp. buildings to make replacements decent. The fundamental problem is that while Lancer is good vs. muskets and knights and serviceable against rifles and cavs, it ends up facing Infantry landship and is laughable. Either add in another middle unit or fold it into infantry or mounted branch. Having the lancer part makes sense and works. Units with lancer UUs need that buff. No civ has anti-tank UU and by that point its easy to pump out new units as needed.
     
  3. dragodon64

    dragodon64 Noble

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    I don't really have a problem with pikes -> lances, but if you don't have horses, does that mean that you can never upgrade your pikes to anti-tanks? I'm pretty sure you always have to go through the intermediate units to upgrade, unlike in Civ4.
     
  4. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    Nah, in the Industrial age the AI doesn't value iron or horses so they'll give them to you for free.:)
     
  5. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    I think the main idea now is the following. If you don't have resources for offensive play, you could defend your land with archer units. Spears and pikes are dedicated for anti-cavalry, plus some small usage to fortify between archers and enemy units.

    I'm still thinking the upgrade paths are quite lame:
    - Many old civs are much weaker now. Especially Germany.
    - No real solution for ranged/melee upgrade problem.
    - Spear upgrade path varies in resources and abilities too much.
     
  6. Cajamarca

    Cajamarca Chieftain

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    I think the key here was just how many people played the game a certain way: by capitalizing on how overpowered German pikemen were. With beelining and getting dibs on the GL, Civil service made them almost as cheap as warriors, they could totally sweep a continent, then, once you had built up a gigantic tech lead over the other civs on the map, upgrade all the way to mechanized and sweep the board. And because deep down, we all want to play Hitler, but without the anti-Semitism.

    The real ball kick is that you MUST build other units to capture cities if you upgrade all the way. Plus, I've never had to use anti-tank guns or helicopters, because I am so terrible at this game that I always play on Prince or sometimes King.
     
  7. MasterElements

    MasterElements Chieftain

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    This is my main point for this issue, having a unit that requires no strategic resource to build suddenly requires a strategic resource to keep up to date. That IS a huge kick in the balls for those who have small armies and cannot afford to replace units every era.
    Just a point to historical stuff, it requires more training for a pikemen to learn how to ride a horse effectively and to do so while holding a shorter but thicker pole with ONE hand instead of 2, then to be given a lighter weapon and to do pretty much the same thing; walk up to the enemy and stab them.(seriously muskets were hella inaccurate until rifling)
     
  8. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    And that's why you build swordsmen/LSM instead of pikemen :lol:. Don't tell me you don't have any iron since iron is plentiful on the map, and it's especially easy to get since it's revealed at bronze working in BNW.

    OT: Pikemen upgrading to lancers make sense since they are both anti-mounted units. It would make as much sense for pikemen to upgrade to riflemen as crossbowmen to upgrade to the latter (don't laugh - this happened in vanilla). Lancers aren't that bad; they have a combat strength of 1 higher than muskets, with anti-mounted capabilities and higher mobility to boot.
     
  9. Gyra Solune

    Gyra Solune King

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    Lancers aren't necessarily bad, but utilizing them effectively is inconvenient and they're out of place. If they were the Renaissance upgrade to Knights, I doubt there would be much complaint, since they'd just be the natural progression of mounted units. As it stands, they're a very odd mounted anti-mounted unit that suddenly changes the defensive cheap infantry Pikemen serve well as into an entirely different front-line combat role that Knights are supposed to be.

    I think Pikemen should become some kind of Pike and Shot or something in the Renaissance era, and into Grenadiers that serve as an early anti-tank unit. Also AT guns should be made available earlier, since IIRC they're in the same era as the Helicopter which is just silly.
     
  10. plokoon9619

    plokoon9619 Warlord

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    Pikemen are doomed to be apart of a upgrade line nobody wants. You people are too attached to having every unit type carry on to the end game that we get these messed up lines.
     
  11. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    I just wish they'd add the option to turn pikes into musketmen OR lancers.
    I hate the lancer path with a passion. :(

    edit: God dang it, didn't check the date. Mea culpa. v_v
     
  12. Loucypher

    Loucypher King

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    Question 1: Why is this year old thread necro'd and nobody seems to notice?
    Question 2: Why don't people recognize that while Lancers aren't the best, their upgrades are certainly serviceable in the later eras?
     
  13. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    There is a problem with upgrade wierdness in the pike line.

    I'd suggest changing it to
    Pike->Rifle (like the Impi)
    Knight->Lancer->Cavalry (allow Lancers to be built until Dynamite or Railroad though)

    and have the AT gun use Helicopter promotions rather than melee promotions

    (also Keshik/Camel Archers ->Gatling Guns, and Chariot Archers->Crossbows, but that is different)
     
  14. digrosz

    digrosz Dirty Frank

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    if knight upgraded to lancer and lancer upgraded to cavalry, the lancer would have a very short non-obsolete period. Now they can atleast be a somewhat decent counter to Cavalry.
     
  15. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    Lancers don't fill any niche IMO. They kill knights, pikes can do a decent job for that as well. They loose to cavalry so their anti-cav sort of role fails here. Then they upgrade to AT guns which is even more weird because they gain defensive bonuses but loose mobility.

    It should be like this :-
    Knights -> lancers (standard horse unit of renaissance era, no bonus against horses) -> Cavalry

    Pikes ->?? (renaissance anti-cav foot soldier) -> Anti-tank.

    Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  16. VainoValkea

    VainoValkea Emperor

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    Historically, lancers coexisted with dragoons, who are absent from the game, unless you count the modern cavalry.
     
  17. Gyra Solune

    Gyra Solune King

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    Pretty much this, yeah. I considered the possibility of giving Spain a unique building to replace the Tercio, which would be renamed the Pike and Shot and be put in as the general Renaissance anti-cavalry.
     
  18. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    They are Not a decent counter to cavalry*... and I would have them not go obsolete until Dynamite (mostly for Lancer UU)

    Lancer v. Cavalry=25+33% v. 34
    or
    33.33 v. 34

    The best counter to Cavalry is other Cavalry

    Pikes should just go to Rifles (like the Impi does) or Muskets (Since Muskets are just as good v. Horse Units as Pikes)

    AntiTank can be its own(have it use the Helicopter promotions..mobility and Antitank)
     
  19. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    When I upgraded my pikes into lancers, I thought 'what happened to the defensive bonus for infantry? ' since the pike is no longer infantry/melee and now a mounted, which doesn't get defense bonus like melee does. When I was trying to upgrade my warrior to a musketman in civ 5 I couldn't because I lacked iron to upgrade into swords and then into musks. I figured it would be a lot cheaper to make a new musk and delete the old warrior or have the warrior scout new lands.
     
  20. George Abitbol

    George Abitbol Prince

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    I wish Dragoons were included in the game. It coul be a cool unit: can fight both on horse or on foot. So if your sources of horses are pillaged, they can still fight as infantry unit. Maybe it would fill the gap between knight and cavalry.
     

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