Pikeman upgrade to Lancers?

[Falconiano]

This mod fixes it. What's the problem?
Or edit your XML files.

 

[Past Redemption]

This issue has been debated to death in the 2K forums as well.

I also do not like the Pike to Lancer upgrade for several reasons.

First and foremost, the pike is the default infantry unit of the Medieval era. Longswords are a resource unit and are supposed to be specialized at capturing cities. The default infantry unit of one era should upgrade to the default infantry unit of the next era (Ancient being the only exception, as the Warrior and Spearman are both "default" units). Thus, the pike (as the default unit of the medieval era) should upgrade to the musket (as the default infantry unit of the Reniassance). You should not have to build an entire new defensive army just because you entered a new era. If that's what they wanted to do, then nothing should have upgraded to the Musketman, and Longswords should have upgraded to Rifles (as in vanilla game). Or muskets and rifles should require a resource (i.e. saltpeter). If the devs want spears/pikes to be a specialized unit, then they should reduce their base strength so they aren't as competitive against warriors/swords and aren't practical for use against an invasion force, then introduce a NEW classical/medieval infantry unit (i.e. a axe/mace) that can act as a resourceless-default unit.

Secondly, the jump from foot unit to specialized mounted unit back to foot unit then to helicopter is jarring.

Lastly, the civilopedia says that the invention of muskets and bayonets obsoleted pikes and spears. So there

If you ask me, the upgrade tree in general needs some work.

While I agree with the just of the argument, I have to question a few things. First off, from a historical standpoint, not only were pikemen not the default infantry unit, they hard to even classify as soldiers, since except with notable exceptions (Tercios and dutch/german infantries) pikemen were peasants handed a pike and told to stand there. After stopping the inital charge, a pikeman would still get absolutely butchered by anything that looked at them funny, something you'll see in almost any RTS that utilizes them (a severe weakness to flanking.) That said, Firaxis' seeming unwillingness to change the default line into something else puts pikemen in an awkward situation, and I'd argue tht instead of arguing about pikemen, as the default medieval unit, turning into a niche renaissance one as the problem, we should argue about the condition that make that the reality, when historical medieval combat was almost entirely decided by one of three things: the initial ranged bombardment, a calvary charge, or the dismounted knights who accompanied either of those forces. Pikemen had little to do with any of that, and are given a much larger importance in Civ than makes any real sense.

I do have to agree that Pikes to Lancers is a jarring upgrade, and makes almost no sense. However, the alternatives are just as bad, if not worse. You can have it have no upgrade path, a la vanilla, which just makes the unit completely useless and promotes terrible gameplay. The other alternative is to put it in the mounted line, which is really just as jarring, since you go from knight with lance/sword to lancer with pike to Cavalry with gun, and more importantly promotes even worse gameplay, wince the middle unit now directly counters both of the ones on the side, and it comes out as barely weaker than cavalry when matched up it directly, begging the question of why you even bothered.

Ultimately, I think it's a pointless discussion. The change was made for gameplay reasons, and to nerf a criminally overused unit (pikemen) and buff a totally unused one (lancers). I would argue that lancers are, on a whole, better than they're typically given credit for, though (although I certainly agree that AT guns and Helicopters aren't worth the hammers.)

 

[Louis XXIV]

...and guess what the most common militaristic CS unit gift is?!

To be fair, they tend to send you what you don't have a lot of. If you build more Lancers, they wouldn't be sending them to you

 

[ekat2468]

My main problem with Lancers it THEIR upgrade path: If I get a unit in the renissance.... can I have it upgrade before the atmoic era?

 

[elbeasto]

Lancers and AT guns shouldn't even be in the game but if a unit must upgrade to a Lancer, let the Horseman have an optional upgrade path, either to Knight or Lancer.

But FFS let the Pikeman upgrade to a Musketman, that makes sense.

 

[reddishrecue]

The pike upgrade path is like that because it counters lancers. It should upgrade to muskets when there are no horses though.

 

[kk1000]

Anti-mounted is their thing. Yeah, beware.


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[Modus Pwnens]

+1 Pikes should upgrade to muskets. Historically, in the early modern armies, the ratio of pikes to muskets steadily dropped. As the guns got more effective, pikemen would be given muskets. Right up until the bayonet, when the pike became obsolete.

The pikeman's skill is as an infantry soldier. His skill at using a pike does not translate into skill at riding, or at using a lance on horseback. It would be far easier to hand him a musket than to train him to ride.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well, if we're talking about realism, I don't think the same guy who was the Pikeman is now a Lancer. He'd probably be retired or dead by that point.

 

[reddishrecue]

^^Yup. Civilization is too long for one human..

 

[Depee]

Take a look into a history book. Pikemen were created to fight the lancers. So they are not only two entirely different units but chronologically it was the other way.

 

[DemonMaster]

Take a look into a history book. Pikemen were created to fight the lancers. So they are not only two entirely different units but chronologically it was the other way.

... and they still can. You probably don't upgrade every single pikeman to a lancer because perhaps you don't have horses enough or you have very good promoted knights that you don't like to disband. So lancers and pikeman will co-exist

Then of course, I do think it would have been better to have lancer as an upgrade for knights and let pikemen become musketman without the +50% vs horses ability (hmm, except for spain I guess).

 

[Krajzen]

Then of course, I do think it would have been better to have lancer as an upgrade for knights and let pikemen become musketman without the +50% vs horses ability (hmm, except for spain I guess).

Historically, since renaissance pikemen were still used in the tercio formations (not only in Spain) until bayonets of line infantry.

In my opinion:
knight -> lancer -> cavalry
longsword -> musketman -> rifleman
pikeman -> tercio (20 strenght) -> rifleman (all riflemen have Bayonet promotion regardless of their origin, +25% against cavalry)

And Span could have something different and more useful than tercio. Firaxis already did similar thing with Landsknecht and Foreign Legion

 

[4N4C0ND4]

Historically, since renaissance pikemen were still used in the tercio formations (not only in Spain) until bayonets of line infantry.

In my opinion:
knight -> lancer -> cavalry
longsword -> musketman -> rifleman
pikeman -> tercio (20 strenght) -> rifleman (all riflemen have Bayonet promotion regardless of their origin, +25% against cavalry)

And Span could have something different and more useful than tercio. Firaxis already did similar thing with Landsknecht and Foreign Legion

Please DON'T.
Another way to nerf the mounted units, no me gusta.
What I don't like in current sate of CIV is that pre indus unit requiring ressources actually suck... How ironic lol
Swords because of the wrong tech path.
Horseman/knight because of pike spam...

I've read thought the all thread. My biggest issue is that pikes are just too good in this current state. Good strenght, PERFECT tech path (on way to educiton AND the +food), AND on top of that a handy promotion.

If you/firaxi wants pikes to me the main line unit, as it was historicaly it seems, lower the strenght and/or maybe the anti mounted bonus.

Sorry for ranting but tired to go throught the whole medieval with 10 horses and 14 iron unsed because yet xbows and pikes are just much better...

As far as the lancer is concerned, I am the only one that think their upgrade cost is a bit much? I guess the upgrade gold cost is generic, but some upgrades that are debatable (pikes > lancers, xbows > gattlings) should maybe gets cheaper since the upgrade has also huge downsides.

 

[Robbedem]

Rise of nations used this order:
Hoplites -> Phalanx -> Pikemen -> Elite Pikemen -> Fusiliers -> Anti-Tank Rifle -> Bazooka -> Anti-Tank Missile

Change lancers to "Elite Pikemen" and add something to bridge the gap to anti-tank rifle (Fusiliers) and it's all fine. Also give anti-tank rifle and up a ranged attack. (anti-tank missile could be added as extra, but isn't necessary)