Pirates`

[Dora190]

I know this has been visited a lot but whilst I was browsing yesterday something struck me. The general chat was that pirates were too easy to identify in single player and that the Privateer was OK but that the unique Lanun unit was too easy to spot.

This actually misses the point of piracy, I'm talking historically here.

Piracy falls into two categories

1 - Private enterprise - (Bluebeard)

2 - State sponsored piracy.

In FFH terms the Lanun have the pirates of type 1 and everyone else has item 2.

It has been pointed out that the privateer is a misnomer as privateers were ships given a letter of marque, a legal document that allowed them to attack ships of certain powers, but not others. It was suggested that the privateer, if it declared its nationality, became a random ship type; a caravel or frigate or some such.

The reality should be that there are no 'pirate' ship classes. Privateers should be ordinary ships that have a promotion, that allows them to attack other ships without a declaration of war. I don't think it should obscure their nationality, historically everybody knew whom the pirates were, the reality is that it is very difficult to hide your nationality for any length of time.

In FFH terms the 'Letter of Marque' (which would be available with defensive pacts) promotion will allow the ship to attack, without a declaration of war, any ship which the nation doesn't have a defensive pact with. As nationality is not hidden the aggrieved nation will eventually get to the stage of declaring war on the nation that is letting its 'privateers' lose on it, (which is what happened anyway).

This would allow:

1 - For an attitude modifier for using the promotion.
2 - Allows for an addition to the diplomacy and the extension of defensive pacts

Privateers should gain monetarily from attacking other ships, regardless of nationality, that was after all the point, which should be offset by an increase in crime rate when ever a privateer berths.

BTW Ships should only be able to heal via magic or whilst in port.

This leaves the Lanun a bit high and dry as a raison d'aitre.

In FFH terms they would always have the option of a letter of marque (they invented it in effect) and the attitude hit they take should be less.

of course there are also lots of other things you could do to make them more unique such as:

UU's like a fire ship (a caravel that explodes a la pyre zombie), Iron Clad - late UU (not the US civil war version, which was basically a pants river boat, the ocean going version that replaced the SOL in most navies.)

Their world spell could be changed to 'Rise of the damned' - like the elvish Treant spell but raises a drown for every ship sunk up to that point. Which would make them really scary later in game.

Lanun ships should also have the unique ability to attack ports without boarding parties, think Royal Marines, and cut out (capture) ships in those ports - something that happened not infrequently.

My tuppeny worth

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

umh, I'll have to agree that having ships regain health for standing still in the middle of the ocean looks weird. but then again, I guess it means that invisible, automatic supply ships are being sent there to repair them, which is basically what the maintenance cost is all about

 

[Merddyn]

umh, I'll have to agree that having ships regain health for standing still in the middle of the ocean looks weird. but then again, I guess it means that invisible, automatic supply ships are being sent there to repair them, which is basically what the maintenance cost is all about

There actually isn't that big of a problem with it at all, in my opinion. Military, and frequently even merchant, ships in the age of sail generally had carpenters and a supply of wood on board to use for repairs at sea. After all, they were frequently out of port for months or even years at a time, so wouldn't it make sense to be able to enact necessary repairs away from a port, especially when you ran the risk of a random pirate or even a strong storm destroying your mast or holing your ship below the water line? If that happens, you're pretty much sunk right there without any repairs.

Also, you don't always need wood to enact some of those repairs; in an emergency, that hole under the water line could be filled with a sail to at least slow the flow of water in enough to be able to empty it out until you can make port. The water pressure from the outside and the lack thereof inside would force the sail to adhere to the ship and hole on its own, though having ropes stretch out the sail so that it doesn't get sucked all the way in is obviously necessary.

As it is, ships already repair very slowly anyway, so there isn't that big of a problem. If there's really a problem with it, though, there could be a ship crew type added that reduces cargo capacity by one to enable at sea repairs, or a carpenter unit that could be built and put on the ship to enact repairs at sea.

Besides, that puts them at even more of a disadvantage against water-walking units. They can just blockade the ship's movement while they send in fireballs or the like, until the ship dies. Or just send in water-walking units with a high withdrawal, who can then heal while the ship is unable to be repaired any.

 

[Polobo]

Their world spell could be changed to 'Rise of the damned' - like the elvish Treant spell but raises a drown for every ship sunk up to that point. Which would make them really scary later in game.

Drown are OO units; it is not necessarily true that the Launan will be in the OO religion and if they are not then getting access to Drown would seem non-flavorish.

If you are going to make that radical a change how about having all existing sea-animals convert (like the clan does - but water only) to the Launan

 

[Atnanor]

Why the hell can't we have a "Pirate Crew" that makes the ship hidden nationality, it could require shipyard or something for balance, and also cost gold.

 

[loffenx]

I think Dora's suggestions seem very thoughtful. Alot could surely be done to spice up the seas, and the idea of a special promotion along the lines of Doras suggestion sound very good imo. It would make the seas even more dangerous and warrant more attention, and make diplomacy more complex and interesting

 

[Ekolite]

Why the hell can't we have a "Pirate Crew" that makes the ship hidden nationality, it could require shipyard or something for balance, and also cost gold.

I agree. It could become available at the tech you get privateers from, and make the ship hidden antionality and pillage gold by destroying other ships. The Lanun could have a unique version of this crew promotion available at sefaring, which does the same thing, but allows their ships to capture destroyed ships as well as pillaging gold from them? I think that would work nicely IMO.

The privateer and pirate units oculd then be removed.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

I like it. I would think that applying a gold cost to the "Pirate Crew" promotion would be helpful to prevent abuse (turning it on and off) and it makes sense to me.

 

[Dora190]

I'd point out that Pirate crew promotion is effectively the same as a letter of marque.

Although, why would it cost money to make the change though? The Royal Navy invented piracy, they called it prize money.

I know the drown are a UU for the Overlords, however, as many will have discovered a quick way to find them is to investigate ship wrecks. Sheaim can gain Moroi and I picked up an adventurer the other night. Drown seem, well a bit Davy Jones locker and piraty. The main problem with this would be the same as for the Horde, it'll tank the Lanun's economy.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

I'd point out that Pirate crew promotion is effectively the same as a letter of marque.

Although, why would it cost money to make the change though? The Royal Navy invented piracy, they called it prize money.

Hrmm in this case, wouldn't it make more sense for each kill to COST you money? I mean, the government paid the pirates, the pirates didn't hand over their loot to the government.

If each kill cost YOU money and each turn blockading a city cost the target civ money but didn't give you any, that would make some sense.

 

[Merddyn]

Hrmm in this case, wouldn't it make more sense for each kill to COST you money? I mean, the government paid the pirates, the pirates didn't hand over their loot to the government.

If each kill cost YOU money and each turn blockading a city cost the target civ money but didn't give you any, that would make some sense.

... It's called taxes. ^_^ Besides, do you think the government would buy the ships for construction value? Naturally, they'd only pay as high as they could still make a profit with if they sell it to someone else.

At the very least, they'd still make money off of blockading the city. Think of it as an investment: You pay to commission the privateers, but you can earn it back by taxing what they take from enemies (and the privateers make money out of the deal, too!)

As much as I prefer the realism of being able to capture enemy ships like that, considering most of the time, Navies tried to capture enemy ships, not destroy them (Far more cost effective to take your enemies and repair it as necessary). Also, the opportunity to gain intelligence on the enemies was a benefit as well. However, it'd detract from the impressiveness of Lanun Boarding Parties and the like. If nothing else, you can flavor it as having a mage on the ship with fire magic, or some kind of scroll or the like owned by the captain, that fireballs the ship to keep it from being captured by the enemy.

 

[Dora190]

Prize money worked by valuing the captured goods at X. Each member of the capturing crew had so many shares, Captain might get 50% an ordinary seaman 1% and the monies distributed on that basis. Of course the government was paying out the prize money and they then sold off the ship's goods at market values. The ship, if a warship would then enter service with the navy. Some ships had quite colourful careers being captured, recaptured and re-recaptured. At least one ship changed hands 3 or 4 times. The government always came out on top although the allocation of prize monies was no small issue of debate and arguments and litigation were not uncommon.

I should stress that privateering under a letter of marque was one thing Puracy something else. A letter of marque did not hide your nationality. I don't think privateers should have hidden nationality, but their predations shouldn't lead to war directly (think of the England - Spain situation in the 16th century, the Spanish knew who the pirates were, it did lead to war eventually.)