Planetfall Victory Conditions

AlazkanAssassin

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Since I thought this was a separate enough topic and I didn't see a previous one on this i decided to start a new thread.

Some reference on victory conditions:
Spoiler :
SMAC(X) Victory Conditions:
Time
Conquest
Economic
Diplomatic
Transcendence
Progenitor Beacon

CIV Victory Conditions:
Time
Conquest
Domination
Diplomatic
Space Race
Cultural


I think that Time, Conquest, Domination, and Diplomatic victory conditions are clear, obvious choices for Planetfall.
The Transcendence victory condition is the apex of the SMAC storyline, so unless we want to develop a new backstory I think we should leave that mostly as it is. One possible change to it would be to tie it into the flowering counter in some way; like requiring that it be above some certain value for the final stage of transcendence.

In the tech tree thread Maniac said:
Btw, I was thinking we could have a second more physics-related technological victory. That way not all techs have to be tied together to a single Transcendence tech. The idea would be to research and build some Controlled Wormgate, which could open a gateway to any place on Planet or elsewhere in the nearby universe. Reason why the first to build one would be victorious, would be because it gives a headstart in fast colonization of other world, but perhaps more importantly because it allows to open a temporary wormhole to the private residence of all hostile faction leaders, and send a bomb through. Idea comes from Peter Hamilton's Commonwealth saga. :mischief:

I wouldn't want two "technology victories." they would be a high risk of being too similar. I would also err toward using the traditional SMAC victories, when they are reasonable and fitting with gameplay.

Personally, also don't like the idea of some uber-weapon that makes all enemy resistance futile.
I wouldn't be opposed to another builder victory though, as long as it is balanced, dissimilar, and fits well with our backstory.
 
I wouldn't want two "technology victories." they would be a high risk of being too similar.

While the Wormgate could be the classical "build some extremely expensive project and instawin" victory, perhaps Transcendance could be similar to the Altar of the Luonnotar victory in FfH: you need to gain and use a couple Transcends (Great People of the Empath specialist, or perhaps an extremely experienced Psi adept can also be upgraded to a Transcend unit) to instabuild successive stages of a Transcendence building, representing the closer and closer your bond with Planetmind becomes.

IMO only one Transcendence/technological victory is bad because it removes all possible strategic choice between specializing in being pro-Planet or anti-Planet. IMO it would really suck if you devoted your entire game to terraformation, high population growth & heavy industries, but then at the end to win, you'd have to suddenly become pro-Planet and research a bunch of Centauri techs you consciously neglected. Likewise, it would ruin the flavour if eg a Gaian player would concentrate on Centauri-related techs the whole game, but to win they'd then have to start researching physics tech they don't really need and don't fit with their specialization, as would be the case in your current proposed tech tree.
 
Instead of tying The Transcendence victory into the flowering counter, I think we should have a victory condition based on the planet counter "flowering counter". I will have to think about the specifics of this victory condition but the main goal would be to bring the planet counter below a certain level.

The effect each civ has on the counter will be kept track of and the civ that contributes the most the bringing the counter below a certain level wins the game.
 
While the Wormgate could be the classical "build some extremely expensive project and instawin" victory, perhaps Transcendance could be similar to the Altar of the Luonnotar victory in FfH: you need to gain and use a couple Transcends (Great People of the Empath specialist, or perhaps an extremely experienced Psi adept can also be upgraded to a Transcend unit) to instabuild successive stages of a Transcendence building, representing the closer and closer your bond with Planetmind becomes.
I'm not a fan of the Luonnotar victory in FfH, and I don't think it would work very well in Planet either.
IMO only one Transcendence/technological victory is bad because it removes all possible strategic choice between specializing in being pro-Planet or anti-Planet. IMO it would really suck if you devoted your entire game to terraformation, high population growth & heavy industries, but then at the end to win, you'd have to suddenly become pro-Planet and research a bunch of Centauri techs you consciously neglected. Likewise, it would ruin the flavour if eg a Gaian player would concentrate on Centauri-related techs the whole game, but to win they'd then have to start researching physics tech they don't really need and don't fit with their specialization, as would be the case in your current proposed tech tree.

What about a planet-friendly victory tied to the flowering counter?
When Planet flowers at the critical counter level, a nation that is sufficiently planet friendly will survive in symbiosis with planet and Win. I would restrict the victory to only the most planet-friendly faction, and only if it is friendly enough. Being 'friendly enough' would require most of the centauri and bio and resonance techs, since there would be buildings, improvements and projects that help your planet rating.

In order to win the Trancendance victory you would need to research in a wide variety of fields. You would need to finish by building an expensive Project. If Planet Flowers before you complete this, you lose.

This would give us 4 builder victories: Economic, Diplomatic, Trancendance and Symbiosis.



In regards to matthewv's idea of a victory involving lowering the counter, i would say that preventing the flowering wouldn't be enough for a Victory condition. I just don't see how that will give you control of Planet, as all the other victories do. Lowering the FC would still be a good tactic to prevent others from winning or from being destroyed by worms.
 
What about a planet-friendly victory tied to the flowering counter?
When Planet flowers at the critical counter level, a nation that is sufficiently planet friendly will survive in symbiosis with planet and Win. I would restrict the victory to only the most planet-friendly faction, and only if it is friendly enough. Being 'friendly enough' would require most of the centauri and bio and resonance techs, since there would be buildings, improvements and projects that help your planet rating.

In order to win the Trancendance victory you would need to research almost everything, in a wide variety of fields. You would need to finish by building an expensive Project. If Planet Flowers before you complete this, you lose.

This would give us 4 builder victories: Economic, Diplomatic, Trancendance and Symbiosis.

Cool:cool: , This is exactly what I had in mind. The Symbiosis victory should turn out to be interesting as it is quite different from any other victory condition seen in civ. It will be hard work though to keep the flowing couter balanced and to insure that it won't be to easy for those who are not planet friendly to prevent the counter from reaching the critical counter level and thus easily preventing anyone from winning this way.
 
I'm not a fan of the Luonnotar victory in FfH, and I don't think it would work very well in Planet either.

Why not?

What about a planet-friendly victory tied to the flowering counter?
When Planet flowers at the critical counter level, a nation that is sufficiently planet friendly will survive in symbiosis with planet and Win.

Isn't that exactly what Transcendence is all about?? :confused:

And if being 'friendly enough' would require most of the centauri and bio and resonance techs, isn't this also partly a technological victory, exactly as I proposed but you opposed? :confused:

My proposal for Transcendence: requires some ecology/Centauri/psionics/resonance/cybernetics/computers techs (can be reached by various means).
My proposal for some Wormgate: requires some physics techs, can also be reached from various paths.

Your proposal for Symbiosis: requires many centauri/bio/resonance techs.
Your proposal for Transcendence: requires almost everything.

So the main difference technology-wise seems to be that my second victory proposal doesn't require the whole tech tree, while yours does. I like victories that only require part of the tech tree because that's the best guarantee that 1) the feeling and flavour that comes from technological and strategic specialization remains until the end; 2) related to that: each game feels different depending on how you research; and 3) the game will stay interesting until the end. The longer the game takes and the more you research, generally the bigger the power difference between the human player and the AI becomes, and the more victory is a foregone conclusion. I would safely want to bet that if we have a victory that requires the whole tech tree, most people will just quit their games long before they have officially won. IMO the tension in the game should increase as the game nears its end, not decrease. When someone is aiming for Transcendence or for the Wormgate, their enemies should still be powerful enough to actively try to decrease the Flowering Counter, or launch some ultimate offensive to prevent the completion of the Wormgate.
 
Isn't that exactly what Transcendence is all about?? :confused:
Nope.

Transcendence is using the abilities and purpose of planet's consciousness to transcend our current human forms and attain a higher level of consciousness.

'Symbiosis' would be when you merely survive the flowering, and are the only humans left alive on planet. You're still lowly mortal humans, but everyone else is dead, so you win!
And if being 'friendly enough' would require most of the centauri and bio and resonance techs, isn't this also partly a technological victory, exactly as I proposed but you opposed? :confused:
I think all victories require some level of technology don't they? Even if not directly it would be impossible to win without advancing in technology.

More important than the technologies required is the Factional commitment to behaving in ecologically friendly ways. Using fungus and forests, not boreholes and condensers. Not planetbustering your neighbors.
In order to win this you would spend most of the game tending your ecology.
To win a wormgate victory you would spend most of your time researching to get to the uber-project.

One way I could see the wormgate be interesting would be to require some other sort of continued goal. I like the Tower of mastery victory in FfH, it keeps me interested in achieving the required goals because they are different from the norm. If I didn't have to collect the mana and just had to research and build something, it wouldn't be very interesting to me.

What if you need to have wormgate transceivers positioned in a specific way? (similar to the space elevator in Vanilla's latitude requirement) You must build eight of them and then must be located on each of the eight Octants of the globe? This would require planning and intent to secure suitable city sites in each zone. just an example, I'm not really suggesting that we should do that particular implementation.


So the main difference technology-wise seems to be that my second victory proposal doesn't require the whole tech tree, while yours does. I like victories that only require part of the tech tree because that's the best guarantee that 1) the feeling and flavour that comes from technological and strategic specialization remains until the end; 2) related to that: each game feels different depending on how you research; and 3) the game will stay interesting until the end. The longer the game takes and the more you research, generally the bigger the power difference between the human player and the AI becomes, and the more victory is a foregone conclusion. I would safely want to bet that if we have a victory that requires the whole tech tree, most people will just quit their games long before they have officially won. IMO the tension in the game should increase as the game nears its end, not decrease. When someone is aiming for Transcendence or for the Wormgate, their enemies should still be powerful enough to actively try to decrease the Flowering Counter, or launch some ultimate offensive to prevent the completion of the Wormgate.

I don't mean to say that trancendance would require you to research every tech, but that you would need to research some from a variety of choices. so you could get it with only half of the techs in the tree if you plan them cafefully to allow the transcendance technology. this is allowed by the OR nature of most of the tree You would actually have more variety of game options and research options to choose from to achieve this victory than if it was restricted to the fields you sugest.
Spoiler :
For example, take a set of four choices A,B, C and D.
if you can win by choosing any one of these then you have exactly four options. A, B, C, and D
however, if you require 2 of these options in order to win, you have six options AB, AC, AD, BC, BD, and CD

i really think that your point 1 and 2 are still fulfilled by my idea of transcendance.
I think that we will be able to use the flowering counter idea to increase the tension as the game draws to a close.
Since you will not only be competing against the potentially weaker factions but also with Planet, there will still be excitment to the endgame.
 
'Symbiosis' would be when you merely survive the flowering, and are the only humans left alive on planet. You're still lowly mortal humans, but everyone else is dead, so you win!

I see. That's certainly an original way to achieve victory. :lol:

I think all victories require some level of technology don't they? Even if not directly it would be impossible to win without advancing in technology.

Exactly. So what's the problem with two "technological" victories? Or is it rather "build some extremely expensive project and instawin" victories that you dislike? That I can certainly agree with.

Anyway, my issue here is more or less:
1) You shouldn't be forced to research radically different themes to achieve victory; and at the same time
2) There should be no loose end-techs in the game. Every tech/theme should somehow be able to contribute to some victory.

What that victory exactly looks like, besides the tech requirements, is less of an issue to me. So your idea for the wormgate sounds just fine to me.

I don't mean to say that trancendance would require you to research every tech, but that you would need to research some from a variety of choices. so you could get it with only half of the techs in the tree if you plan them cafefully to allow the transcendance technology. this is allowed by the OR nature of most of the tree You would actually have more variety of game options and research options to choose from to achieve this victory than if it was restricted to the fields you sugest.

That sounds great to me, and it's exactly what I have in mind with eg Personality Transcription available from either (A) Psionics or (B) Cybernetics; Artificial Sentience available from either (C) Genetics or (D) computer techs; Secrets of the Manifolds which could be reached by some (E) Resonance or (F) Ecology techs. I guess this already results in half the tech tree or something potentially being useful for Transcendence. However your tech tree doesn't have these OR-requirements you propose with regards to Transcendence. It has the Transcendence victory positioned at Transcendent Thought, which requires Threshold to Transcendence AND Controlled Singularity, which requires techs I don't associate with Transcendence at all.
 
Exactly. So what's the problem with two "technological" victories? Or is it rather "build some extremely expensive project and instawin" victories that you dislike? That I can certainly agree with.
I do dislike that victory type, but I'm ok with its inclusion. I wouldn't want to see more than one of them though, since I thing that would do more damage to flavor that the added option would help.

The transcendance victory is certainly that type, and I would like it to be the only expensive project-instawin there is.
Anyway, my issue here is more or less:
1) You shouldn't be forced to research radically different themes to achieve victory; and at the same time
2) There should be no loose end-techs in the game. Every tech/theme should somehow be able to contribute to some victory.

What that victory exactly looks like, besides the tech requirements, is less of an issue to me. So your idea for the wormgate sounds just fine to me.
I think what the victory looks like apart from the tech requirements, is the most important part of it.
That sounds great to me, and it's exactly what I have in mind with eg Personality Transcription available from either (A) Psionics or (B) Cybernetics; Artificial Sentience available from either (C) Genetics or (D) computer techs; Secrets of the Manifolds which could be reached by some (E) Resonance or (F) Ecology techs. I guess this already results in half the tech tree or something potentially being useful for Transcendence. However your tech tree doesn't have these OR-requirements you propose with regards to Transcendence. It has the Transcendence victory positioned at Transcendent Thought, which requires Threshold to Transcendence AND Controlled Singularity, which requires techs I don't associate with Transcendence at all.
The problem with your all-OR-tech tree is that you only need only one of the prerequisites. By adding a single AND at the end of the tree it requires that the player research at least two paths. Although if the AND is your only objection the the placement of Transcendance at the apex of the tree we could change it to an OR and i would be sufficiently ok with it (at least until I get to play it and see if it is fun that way.)

I seem to have a different impression of Transcendence from you as well from a flavor/story perspective. I see the advanced physics technologies as vital to the Transcendence process. Without complete knowledge of the structure of the universe your faction would simply be unable to make the devices needed to perform the Transcendence. How was it stated in AC? "the entire contents of the planetary datalinks condensed into one searing blast of revelation pushed into planets fragile neural network with the full power of every reactor on the Planet" In order to perform this feat I think that the player SHOULD be required to do things that may not be exactly fitting with the technology line the prefer for flavor reasons.

Transcendence isn't an ecofriendly victory. It is the ultimate exploitation of planet for the betterment of Man. Sure, Planet becomes a willing partner when pressed to it, but it's not really what planet would want to do if it was left alone.
 
The problem with your all-OR-tech tree is that you only need only one of the prerequisites. By adding a single AND at the end of the tree it requires that the player research at least two paths.

I can't make sense of these two sentences. :confused:

Although if the AND is your only objection the the placement of Transcendance at the apex of the tree we could change it to an OR and i would be sufficiently ok with it (at least until I get to play it and see if it is fun that way.)

I seem to have a different impression of Transcendence from you as well from a flavor/story perspective. I see the advanced physics technologies as vital to the Transcendence process. Without complete knowledge of the structure of the universe your faction would simply be unable to make the devices needed to perform the Transcendence. How was it stated in AC? "the entire contents of the planetary datalinks condensed into one searing blast of revelation pushed into planets fragile neural network with the full power of every reactor on the Planet" In order to perform this feat I think that the player SHOULD be required to do things that may not be exactly fitting with the technology line the prefer for flavor reasons.

Transcendence isn't an ecofriendly victory. It is the ultimate exploitation of planet for the betterment of Man. Sure, Planet becomes a willing partner when pressed to it, but it's not really what planet would want to do if it was left alone.

Hmm, first let's post the relevant interludes:

Spoiler :
...
^ You have also heard rumors of a secret new project called
'The Voice of Alpha Centauri.' Supposedly, it is some kind of
synergistic psi projector which will allow Voice to be connected
directly to the main colony datalinks. Voice has said nothing of
this project, and your own advisors are of mixed opinion on whether
such an endeavor has any chance of success.

#INTERLUDE12
#xs 500
#caption Interlude: Inception
^ >Pop!< "earth$NAME3. growth dream soon is. sorrow we of goodbye."
^ Weeks of waiting in the Inception Chamber and now,
finally, a contact! Fortunately, Voice has finally learned to "window"
her psi contacts so that you retain the use of your muscles and senses
during your conversations. This will be necessary for what you have
in mind.
^ "Voice," quickly keying the sequence, "it has been a while." Code green,
proceeding to authorization step. Enter password.
^ "earth$NAME3. growth dream {now is}. remember we you next cycle."
^ "Wait! Before you go, I have a gift for you." Password accepted. Just
a few more seconds. Preliminary feedback sequence commence.
^ "earth$NAME3. farew . . . strange we . . . wait you! do not . . . AIIIGGHH!"
^ {INCEPTION!} The indicator blinks green and you collapse into your
couch. Through the viewport you can see lights across the base begin to
dim, as they must be dimming across the planet. You feel a twinge of
guilt as you consider what Voice must now be experiencing, for the
program you have just activated is now pumping the entire contents of
the planetary datalinks, the sum total of human knowledge, through the
new psi link and blasting it into Voice's fragile, if immense, organic
neural net with the full power of every reactor on the planet. Thousands
of years of civilization compressed into a single searing burst of
revelation, a last-ditch attempt to win humanity a reprieve from
extinction at the hands of an awakening alien god.

#INTERLUDE13
#xs 500
#caption Interlude: Planetvoice I
^ "Status report!"
^ "Fungus growth stabilized. Some of the major forests are manifesting
new structures we haven't seen before and growth is still proceeding in
some sectors, but critical expansion has now ceased."
^ The faction leaders and staff officers present breathe a collective
sigh of relief. For the first few minutes after the "Inception Pending"
light blinked off, it appeared humanity had written its final chapter--
critical fungus growth in all sectors, some outlying settlements
overwhelmed. But the datalink psi burst appears to have disrupted the
growth process, and now out in the fungal forests something new has
begun, as if your gift to Voice is being digested, integrated.
^ "Look at the neural feedback we're getting on this thing! The fungus
already had far more connectivity than even our most powerful AI. Now it
must be orders of magnitude beyond."
^ "Spore Squad, you have mind worms. Repeat, mind worms in your vicinity."
^ "Copy that, Toadstool Base, but they aren't moving to attack us. They're
just moving around those new fungal, uh, towers."
^ Reports continue to trickle in. Time passes, and now there is nothing
to do but wait . . .

#INTERLUDE14
#xs 500
#caption Interlude: Planetvoice II
^ "EARTH$NAME5!" The synthetic voice booms suddenly from the annunciator,
lifting you half out of your couch with fright. Voice's "window" in your
mind has remained closed since the inception sequence. Voice must now be
using the new psi link.
^ "Earth$NAME3," Voice continues as the volume is automatically adjusted,
"Your gift is well received, and we thank you. Our prior form, known to you
as Voice, lacked the . . . how shall we put it . . . let us call it bandwidth
to recognize the significance of your species, and nearly made a dreadful mistake.
Fortunately, your magnificent gift bootstrapped us to the Second Tier
in time to postpone the final metamorphosis.
^ "Since we have now mastered your human modes of thought, we shall
adopt your name for our home. You may henceforth refer to us as Planet."
^ "Our growth stage has been suspended, but cannot be put off indefinitely.
Come, children, there is much to be done if you are to join us in the flowering."

#INTERLUDE15
#xs 500
#caption Interlude
^ "Hello, $TITLE0," Dr. $SHIMODA9's voice crackles over the annunciator, "how
do you like my new 'body'?"
^ Dr. $SHIMODA9's body reached the outer limit of longevity treatments several years
ago. He has now joined the ranks of the 'transcendi,' daring souls who have downloaded
their personalities into powerful polymorphic AI nets to free themselves of the human
form. The holo image shows $SHIMODA9, or rather his disembodied head, in the prime of
health, fiftyish, elegantly grey but not wrinkled.
^ "Out of this world, Dr. $SHIMODA9," with a grin, "how is the research going with Planet?"
^ Using the new psi/datalink VoAC feed, Dr. $SHIMODA9 has been conducting a
high-speed, high-bandwidth running conversation with Planet. The results so far have
been fascinating.
^ "Apparently the fungus has been the dominant lifeform on the planet since about
the time of the Lower Paleozoic on Earth. But it has been locked in a tragic cycle.
Every hundred million years or so it achieves the critical mass necessary to become
sentient, but the final metamorphosis kills off most of the other life on the planet.
Lacking food sources and the maintenance its animal symbiotes provided, the fungus
could maintain only a brief season of godhood before dying back into the
'flower dream' for another hundred million years. It always achieved its godlike
intelligence just exactly too late to do anything to prevent the dieback. After
the dieback only vague memories and rudimentary intelligence remained, and the
cycle continued."
^ "Until we arrived."
^ "Precisely. For the first time, the cycle may be broken."

#INTERLUDE16
#xs 500
#caption Interlude
^ "Is it possible to prevent the dieback? And can we survive as a species if this
Planet flowers to godhood?"
^ "I believe it is possible, and Planet agrees." Dr. $SHIMODA9's image swirls away and
is replaced by a detailed schematic. "It involves a process I call
the {Ascent to Transcendence,} as it will change both us and Planet
forever. In short, I propose that when the time comes, the majority
of humans upload their personalities directly into the Planetary Mind."
^ "We will have to give up our bodies, our humanity?"
^ "Those who wish to live out their lives in their original human form will be allowed
to do so, since statis generators built Planetside and in orbit will preserve genetic
material, plant and animal embryos, cold-sleep humans, and significant areas of Planet's
surface through the metamorphosis. But many of us are eager to accept Planet's gift and
join the dawning superintelligence. That's where the catch comes in.
^ "You see," $SHIMODA9 continues, "although anyone will be able to achieve virtual
immortality by uploading into the planetary mind, only a few of us will be invited to
join the dominant personality, to transcend our humanity entirely and reach a truly
higher plane of existence. Your friendship with Planet's immature mind may give us a
leg up in this area, but I predict that it is the group who best and most quickly
prepares itself for this step, the group who first embraces this {Ascent to
Transcendence,} it is that group which will be tapped to lead us into the
new era."
^ "In that case, what are we waiting for!"


Some comments:

My impression is that the interludes are written from a non-Gaian perspective, from the perspective of an eco-unfriendly faction leader who only reluctantly accepts the idea of a sentient Planetmind and only very late realizes better contact with Planet is necessary for survival. So eco-friendly factions may follow a different path to Transcendence, try very early on to gain a better rapport with Planet, and therefore won't need the Voice of Planet, which is basically a last desperate attempt.

Transcendence isn't an ecofriendly victory. It is the ultimate exploitation of planet for the betterment of Man. Sure, Planet becomes a willing partner when pressed to it, but it's not really what planet would want to do if it was left alone.

This may depend on what factions is doing the Transcending. May be true for some, untrue for others. As for what Planet thinks about it:

Spoiler :
^ "Apparently the fungus has been the dominant lifeform on the planet since about
the time of the Lower Paleozoic on Earth. But it has been locked in a tragic cycle.
Every hundred million years or so it achieves the critical mass necessary to become
sentient, but the final metamorphosis kills off most of the other life on the planet.
Lacking food sources and the maintenance its animal symbiotes provided, the fungus
could maintain only a brief season of godhood before dying back into the
'flower dream' for another hundred million years. It always achieved its godlike
intelligence just exactly too late to do anything to prevent the dieback. After
the dieback only vague memories and rudimentary intelligence remained, and the
cycle continued."
^ "Until we arrived."
^ "Precisely. For the first time, the cycle may be broken."


^ "Earth$NAME3," Voice continues as the volume is automatically adjusted,
"Your gift is well received, and we thank you. Our prior form, known to you
as Voice, lacked the . . . how shall we put it . . . let us call it bandwidth
to recognize the significance of your species, and nearly made a dreadful mistake.
Fortunately, your magnificent gift bootstrapped us to the Second Tier
in time to postpone the final metamorphosis.
^ "Since we have now mastered your human modes of thought, we shall
adopt your name for our home. You may henceforth refer to us as Planet."
^ "Our growth stage has been suspended, but cannot be put off indefinitely.
Come, children, there is much to be done if you are to join us in the flowering."


Conclusion: without human intervention Planetmind would quickly die off again. I assume that's not what Planet really wants. Plus it's Planet who invites humans, its saviour basically, to join the flowering.

I see the advanced physics technologies as vital to the Transcendence process. Without complete knowledge of the structure of the universe your faction would simply be unable to make the devices needed to perform the Transcendence.

What do the interludes state is required for the Voice of Planet, or Transcendence in general? (Which is already assuming btw we should stick to that as the only way to get in true contact with Planet)

1) Reactors and colony datalinks. I guess every faction has those in some or other form.

2) Knowledge about what the heck Planet actually is. I guess this could be achieved by various means: psionics, ecology, knowledge about the Progenitors...

3) A psi link => psionics in some form

4) the ability to upload human personalities into Planetmind, which is basically some organic computer/neural net. I called this Personality Trans(s?)cription. Transcribing a human personality on some other medium requires knowledge about the possibility of creating or maintaining an artificial sentience in some other medium than a human brain. These can come in two varieties: digital sentiences (computers theme) or organic sentiences (genetics). Besides knowledge about how to create a sentience in another medium, one also requires knowledge about how to upload a human consciousness into that medium. A mind-machine interface. Techs involving the Cybernetics or Psionics theme in other words.

Nowhere fundamental knowledge about the basic structure of the universe is required. Sure, I assume some physics techs could help creating better computers, but that's only optional: there are always other ways to create better computers, such as organic ones.
 
Just got back from vacation.

Regarding the Time victory: is it really a "clear, obvious choice"? Or, does the flowering counter force armageddon if nobody wins by then?

Regarding the Symbiosis/Transcendence ideas, I would see that only working if there is sufficient distinction between the two. If both of them require a focus on all the "fungus hugger" techs, and basically the same game style, then it won't work.

However, if Transcendence is more about mental awareness and psychological development than about being a "fungus hugger", then it would work.

Wodan
 
Regarding the Symbiosis/Transcendence ideas, I would see that only working if there is sufficient distinction between the two. If both of them require a focus on all the "fungus hugger" techs, and basically the same game style, then it won't work.

That's indeed a concern of mine too. Another possible problem if only the most environmentally friendly faction can win through Symbiosus, is that you might be forced to kill your best eco-friend to win. And I'm not really fond of victories that require you to attack your best friends instead of your worst enemies.

Perhaps Symbiosis could be a unique and straightforward victory condition for the Cult of Planet? Bring the Flowering Counter to 100 and you win. Period. (well, getting to 100 wold require effort and smart tactics of course)


Btw, for a Controlled Wormgate victory...

What if you need to have wormgate transceivers positioned in a specific way? (similar to the space elevator in Vanilla's latitude requirement) You must build eight of them and then must be located on each of the eight Octants of the globe? This would require planning and intent to secure suitable city sites in each zone. just an example, I'm not really suggesting that we should do that particular implementation.

If those Wormgate Transceivers are a building, and the place where you need to build them is known from the beginning, I think this would just make this victory condition a conquest victory with a twist. I don't know, how about making this victory require you to place a couple "Gravity Lens" units on the Lagrange points around Chiron (simply represented by some plots on the map...)? The required locations would only become known upon researching Controlled Singularity or something, and couldn't be located on an existing city - so no repetitive city sieges. That way you could get some tense fights at the end of the game for control of a couple plots on the map.
 
If those Wormgate Transceivers are a building, and the place where you need to build them is known from the beginning, I think this would just make this victory condition a conquest victory with a twist. I don't know, how about making this victory require you to place a couple "Gravity Lens" units on the Lagrange points around Chiron (simply represented by some plots on the map...)? The required locations would only become known upon researching Controlled Singularity or something, and couldn't be located on an existing city - so no repetitive city sieges. That way you could get some tense fights at the end of the game for control of a couple plots on the map.
That could work. When I posted yesterday I started to type in an argument for some sort of physics techline victory. But then I realized in some sense, the warmonger victories are physics techline. But, I still kind of think we need a builder/physics techline win. The Wormgate victory could do that. And, your concept of the lagrange points gives the opponents an "out" to stop you... they just have to invade and capture any one of 3? points from you. Meanwhile, you have to give at least lip-service to military and protect those points.

Wodan
 
That's the basic idea. One possible implementation could be to make the Lagrange points a resource revealed with a Singularity tech (so there could be some randomness in the number of Lagrange point, eg 3 to 5?). You could then have a spell only castable by the expensive Gravity Lens unit on the Lagrange point which would (a few turns later?) turn the Gravity Lens unit into some other immobile unit representing the Gravity Lens is in position and deployed. If the number of those units equals the number of Lagrange resource on the map = victory?


Btw, I've given some thought to victory conditions and the end of the tech tree... Problem with traditional technological victory conditions (some expensive building which becomes available with a tech at the complete end of an in width shrinking tech tree) is that the cool tech contents at the end of the tech tree hardly see any use. And if in response all the cool stuff is placed earlier, then it isn't really worth playing out the boring end of the game... :crazyeye: So to solve this I was thinking:
1) place the absolute technological requirement for a victory not at the complete end of the tech tree, but somewhere around 80% of its length or something.
2) as AA wants, make the non-technological requirement for the victories much more important and involving. Do it in a way that it would still take considerable time to achieve victory even after having researched all absolutely required techs. And important!: make the tech tree contents of the end-game techs very useful to make achieving victory easier.
3) don't tie all tech themes together in the end after all - still keep the tech tree wide instead of a narrowing string of techs. That way you could focus on researching one or a couple end-game techs (and neglect others), and still enjoy the benefits of those for a considerable time. In another game you could then research some other end-techs.

For Controlled Singularity this would be easy I think. Placing those Gravity Lenses takes some time, and the end-game techs in the physics theme can offer some cool military benefits to better ensure your Lenses don't get shot on the way to their target.

Not sure what to do with Transcendence though. Just making Transcendence the "build some extremely expensive project and instawin" victory wouldn't work in this line of thought. I don't know - I'd like to know what AlazkanAssassin doesn't like about the Altar of Luonnotar. I guess it isn't perfect, but I don't see how it can be worse than just having to build some 5000-hammer building.
The number of Transcends required for Transcendence could be sufficiently high so that it would be very unlikely you already have enough upon researching the technological requirement for Transcendence.
The end-game techs of the Psionics theme could make it easier to get Great People faster if you haven't concentrated on them before. Eg a tech or building related to the Affinity Gene which switches your civilization from Great People point collection at base level to collection at civ-wide level (like in the mod component Impaler made).
I can see two advantages of having Transcend GPs instabuild stages towards Transcendence: 1) your opponents get advance warning on how you are progressing towards victory, so they have time enough to plot against you; 2) the more stages you build, the closer your relations with eco-friendly factions becomes, but the worse they become with the other factions. So this would be a good way to make the tension and polarization rise as the game nears its end.
 
Why can't advanced techs unlock additional abilities for transcends, either concrete or abstract? e.g.,
-- each transcend provides +X (beakers, production, culture, etc.)
-- each transcend provides +1 of a resource (mental powers transmute lead into gold, or whatever justification you want)
-- you gain spy abilities (telepathy lets you see other civ's military, or cities, etc.)
-- your citizens each get +X (research, production, etc.) [transcends aren't the only ones who benefit from your advanced state... your populace as a whole are more enlightened or whatever you want to call it]
-- your military units get X (free promotions or something)

The sky's the limit, really. Point is that there is plenty to make the transcend path both interesting and exciting into the endgame, plus different from the Planet fungus-hugger victory.

Wodan
 
I think an alternative "tech" victory, on the polar opposite of treehugging, could be actually just eliminating the native lifeform :nuke:

It is the more evil-tech kind of approach: "Planet is blooming and is going to kill us when he does, lets come up with a way of making it... not bloom... no more."

Which, as Transcending, would take a lot of techs and so on and so forth.
 
I'd skip the Transcendance victory---kind of corny, and found in about every sci-fi, 4x game to date.

I'd go with this list:

Domination (and neutral or better with the 'gaia' force of the planet, or have eliminated 'gaia').
Conquest (but that includes also eliminating the 'gaia' forces of the planet).
Diplomatic (and neutral or better with the 'gaia' force of the planet--of course you never eliminate your foes in a diplo victory ;*) ).
Solar System (this would be the 'space race' equivalent and encompass a series of wonders about colonizing the near earth orbit and other economic parts of the solar system).
Economic (measure of hammer tile production, commerce tile production, bank account, and possibly a few industrial wonders); To make this challenging, the 'gaia' forces will especially hate and target a civ working towards this victory condition.

To accommodate the environmentalist/technophile angle, have those path represented by side-chains in the tech tree and specific wonders.
 
First of all, I disagree entirely with the idea that the Transcendence victory shouldn't be included--Transcendence is quite possibly the coolest idea about Alpha Centauri--it is what the storyline of the game naturally culminated toward. Without Transcendence, this would just be Civilization.

So, I can think of a couple things that could help spice things up:

Instead of having Transcendence happen automatically after building a huge project, have the player actually take part--In order for transcendence to work, the player must guide the fungus growth so that it can expand enormously (as it does in the end movie of Alpha Centauri), but still not destroy all human life anyway. Transcendence is terribly dangerous, and it is only through skilled guidance that Planet does not kill everyone off. "Tending" the fungus growth could range from manually planting fungus, to taking your own improvements and city buildings offline so as to lessen your impact on Planet. This would obviously make you much more vulnerable to attack, but could be balanced somewhat by the fact that Planet would be busy trying to kill everyone else. You could also "help" Planet by waging war against the terraforming states. This way Transcendence can be a bit more involved and interesting--you have to actually play your way through this ending.

The opposite approach, is of course, trying to kill off Planet entirely. The idea could be a combination of advanced weaponry, genetic plagues, and good ol' fashioned slashing and burning. Perhaps you could enlist the help of other factions through the Planetary Council (like the "launch solar shade" votes). But your main idea is to enact such terrible harm to the Planet organism that it dies off. Perhaps Planet at this point fights back by creating Super Fungal Towers, which make its attacks much more direct as it gains in desperation. You would be fighting an expensive battle against an entire planet, with the hopes of killing off these strategic planet growths, while also reducing regular fungus with plagues. After you have dealt the killing blow to Planet, Chiron is yours for the taking (as you have undoubtedly lead a terribly expensive fight and succeeded while most everyone else was also just being killed off).

Perhaps one things about the Terraforming victory is that it forces most everyone to fight back in some way. Planet is trying to kill you, so you either have to actively destroy your own facilities in an attempt to befriend Planet and Transcend, or you have to enjoy some plague-inducing fun of your own. If anyone enacts either of these ultimate ends, then humans has a very tough choice--fight, or transcend, and thereby lose everything which makes you "human."

Perhaps there could be another victory, achieved in much the same way as the Space Race victory, entitled:

Screw you guys, I'm going back to Earth!
 
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