Planting Great Engineers
- Thread starter Jelster
- Start date
Zezima
Warlord
I've never planted a GE. The math really isn't that good for planted GEs or planted GMs. Actually, the math isn't good for GMs no matter how they're used, which is a real shame.
Consider: working a manufactory entails an opportunity cost that must be deducted from the bonus hammers. The minimum value of the opportunity cost is 1or 1
, which is what you could get by improving the tile normally instead of planting the manufactor. Considering that you're not likely to get a GE until wonders cost at least 300, you would need 100 turns of manufactory production to match the immediate investment. Now assume that instead of planting the GE, you just waited for 100 turns. At this point, the wonder value of the GE should be at least 500
Random aside: Custom Houses are total, unadulterated garbage. They need to be fixed. They're terrible beyond words.
Great analysis. I see your point completely, but there is the additional value of everything being built quicker by using the manufactory. A rushed GE equals an immediate wonder and the bonus it provides. A manufactory provides slight increase in raw production. Slight, yes, but in certain circumstances (flat desert/grasslands starts), this can result in a massive % production boost in the early game. While the GE gives you the wonder bonuses, the manufactory causes you to build everything quicker for the rest of the game. Quicker universities = quicker science, quicker markets = quicker gold, etc. And we all know that the earlier the snowball, the better.
The value of the rushed wonder in comparison to the manufactory is really only empirically comparable on a case-by-case basis, despite what the results may look like on paper.
Also, something worth mentioning that hasn't been brought up yet is the Freedom finisher, which would increase the value of the manufactory, albeit pretty late in the game to matter much (without abusing policy saving at least).
On a related note, does anyone know what the hammer value of the rushed GE is? It tends to 1 turn most pre-modern era wonders, but late wonders like SOH, Hubble, CN Tower, etc. are always left with at least a couple turns. I seem to recall a case where it didn't 1 turn Machu Pichu in a low production mountain city I had founded solely for the purpose of ganking Machu Pichu. Is it a raw hammer value or rather a % boost to your current production?
Cahillicus
Warlord
I agree that any GP should be used ASAP (except for Great Generals and Great Admirals)
300 + 30*population.
Me also. I'm wasting a lot of money in the late stages of my games because of the upkeep for my GS's and GE's. Customs Houses do need a buff also.
ssnitrousoxide
Chieftain
In OCC I always plant them unless an AI is beating me to a wonder. Otherwise I always burn them since I will choose Order policy tree and get the super mines.
Cahillicus
Warlord
1 
gold makes custom houses a waste of a great personI just hope they make GMerchants worthwhile next time. Not to scoff at the 3k gold (or more? idk), but, maybe that would take making the social policy for that a bit more focused. Maybe something that actually addresses GMerchants. Not necessarily more "powerful" just for its own sake but just more focused, although I guess wasting your time with the naval path is enough of a punishment for taking the path. Idk but I bet most of us agree that they suck badly.
GE's spent on early game hills are great, but I heard that the pro's don't even make GE's but GS's instead???????????????????????????????? Or least that was brought up in the thread....
I don't see that, regardless of whether you plant that GE, or use him for a wonder. I mean, yeah GS is worth more for his own role IN THE EARLY GAME, but he better be used for a hell of a crucial military upgrade that you better have the cash to upgrade whatever units right there on the spot. Even if you plant every single GS and have the right Civ to get a million GS's, some other city needs to have some good hammers but I suppose it doesn't matter if you already have both the hammers and the gold at the same time. Idk I'm just too low-level and Wonder-happy.. so I value GE's more.
GE's spent on early game hills are great, but I heard that the pro's don't even make GE's but GS's instead???????????????????????????????? Or least that was brought up in the thread....
I don't see that, regardless of whether you plant that GE, or use him for a wonder. I mean, yeah GS is worth more for his own role IN THE EARLY GAME, but he better be used for a hell of a crucial military upgrade that you better have the cash to upgrade whatever units right there on the spot. Even if you plant every single GS and have the right Civ to get a million GS's, some other city needs to have some good hammers but I suppose it doesn't matter if you already have both the hammers and the gold at the same time. Idk I'm just too low-level and Wonder-happy.. so I value GE's more.
Zezima
Warlord
Most high level players don't see GEs because they micro all specialists into university slots to produce as many GSs as possible. Spawning GEs would delay your subsequent GSs by increasing the GPP cost. Admittedly, this kind of micromanagement is pretty necessary to stay competitive in Deity.
I prefer Emperor, so I build a variety of wonders from game to game and am pretty lax about my specialist placement so I get all GPs pretty frequently. That's just my preferred way to play.
I also agree that GPs really shouldn't be held onto for very long. GEs especially shouldn't be held for 100+ turns, even for Hubble. I can understand saving GSs (or GGs for potential citadel bombs in later wars), but none of the others.
HurricaneKnapp
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2013
- Messages
- 17
Early on, you probably get more by planting them, but I find there are so many crucial Wonders then that I don't want to risk losing that I prefer to use them for that. Later in the game, you aren't getting enough from the tiles to make it worthwhile, but you also don't have much trouble producing stuff in the cities you want to.
If I'm playing a science VC I will often have 5, 6 or even 7 GS's waiting to be bulbed 8 turns after my final Research Lab to take me into getting all the spaceship parts. They're worth hanging on to from about T230 onwards during a standard game....
Customs House is pretty awful unless you plan on actually closing Commerce. Even then, the Commerce closer also boosts gold from a Trade Mission, so, really, Customs House has little place in the game.
However, there is one time I plant a Customs House: on an extra luxury I don't need that yields a lot of gold. If I find that I have a gems/river/hill tile, I'll sometimes plant the GM for a Customs House on it because I can't build a trading post on it anyways, and with a Customs House that tile produces a lot of gold per turn.
Great Engineers I only plant when:
1) I want to finish the Utopia Project (which can't be rushed) and have a GE or two
2) When I want to really pump out units for a Domination Victory and have no pressing needs for wonders
3) When I get a GE early from the Mayan UA and know some warmonger is going to be coming quick (Nobunaga, Monty, Bismark, Alex, etc.). In these cases, assuming Temple of Artemis is off the table, the best way to pump out archers and composites is to have a very high production tile. This is very situational. 90% of the time or more, I use the first Mayan Great Person to rush a wonder, but there are rare times where I either get the GE too late to really use on a wonder I need, or where I got a low-production start and desperately need to pump out units.
However, there is one time I plant a Customs House: on an extra luxury I don't need that yields a lot of gold. If I find that I have a gems/river/hill tile, I'll sometimes plant the GM for a Customs House on it because I can't build a trading post on it anyways, and with a Customs House that tile produces a lot of gold per turn.
Great Engineers I only plant when:
1) I want to finish the Utopia Project (which can't be rushed) and have a GE or two
2) When I want to really pump out units for a Domination Victory and have no pressing needs for wonders
3) When I get a GE early from the Mayan UA and know some warmonger is going to be coming quick (Nobunaga, Monty, Bismark, Alex, etc.). In these cases, assuming Temple of Artemis is off the table, the best way to pump out archers and composites is to have a very high production tile. This is very situational. 90% of the time or more, I use the first Mayan Great Person to rush a wonder, but there are rare times where I either get the GE too late to really use on a wonder I need, or where I got a low-production start and desperately need to pump out units.
Zezima
Warlord
This is an interesting idea. I thought all GP improvements connected resources, though, not just the manufactory?
Strategic resources not luxury.
Not luxuries, just strategics.
Light Cleric
ElCee/LC/El Cid
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2011
- Messages
- 3,225
The other problem with GEs is generating them; Universities give 2 Scientist Slots, while Workshops only get 1, and you don't get more until Factories at Industrialization. On lower difficulty levels you can compensate for this by getting several GE point wonders, but higher up getting 2 of them is extremely difficult. Unless ofc you take a city with 2 of them which may or may not happen in an LP coming soon
Cahillicus
Warlord
I often have trouble spawning Great Anything because of a run away AI builds all the wonders first, and my cities don't put citizens in specialist slots for some reason.
Check "Manual Specialist Control" and slot them yourself.
