Player stats, sales, and reception speculation thread

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The concept of a very slow real time strategy game that almost feels turn based is very cool. If it was more simplistic than EU I would definitely be interested. Also I don't know how long EU games would last for, in multiplayer, but if a Grand strategy existed that lasted maybe 2 hours at the most, that could make for a fun LAN experience
 
I know we are going further and further into the off-topic, but I wouldn't actually describe PDX games as RTS. There is no real time, it's tick based – which also aren't the same as turns, of course. But in a real time game, your decisions have an immediate impact (and not after some threshold), and thus whether you give and order faster or slower has an impact. An extreme case (to me) is micro in Age of Empires 2. To succeed in this, you have to learn at what frame of an archer shot or skirmisher throw you can order them to move so that the shot still gets through while moving away from the enemy for exactly as long as it takes to fire a second one. Hence, in RTS, not even a second is a reasonable unit to describe what's happening. Ticks are different: it doesn't matter if you order your troops at the beginning of a tick or at the end of a tick (which represent days in EU4): they will arrive in their destination at the same tick regardless. Similarly, you can order them at the beginning of a tick and then give a different order later the same day, and there is no "loss of action/time/space" or anything. Of course, if you run speed 5, ticks are gone very short (up to 20 per second) and it might feel like an RTS to move around troops. But if you play 1-3 or use a pause, the difference is very clear.

Hence, I think the PDX grand strategy titles are neither turn based nor RTS, but a middle ground that I personally find better for video games than the other two (by now – earlier in my life, I loved RTS): individual and situation-dependent pacing with infinite time for decision making (in single player, that is). I love turn based for board games though, but even there, many games have broken traditional concepts of what a turn encompasses and are neither "all your actions in one turn, then next player" nor "one action per turn, then next player". I think civ's infinite possible actions per turn, with actions multiplying throughout the game based on number of settlements and units is unbearable in a traditional turn-based setting in multiplayer, whether in a video game nor as a board game. It works in single player, but I can't fathom why anyone would be interested to play a game that takes 30 hours and where the majority of time is spent as downtime. It might have been fun in the days of play-by-mail (which also eliminates down time in a way). Yet, apparently, a change to this formula (e.g., Amplitude's simultaneous turns or civ's simultaneous or dynamic turns in MP) is not welcomed by all, as I had to learn.
 
Tick based is an old concept btw. It was used in Sid Meyer's Railroad Tycoon. When paused, you build railroads, and when done, you let trains run their course and see how it works. It was very satisfying to watch.

But if Civ were a tick based, it would require a completely different design. City improvements or using workers would be annoying. RTS can't have that level of micromanagement, and that is sometimes better or worse. The combat would be different. In Civ it is one attack per turn and the results are known immediately. In HOI4, the battle can last days. You may have to consider pulling back or bringing reinforcements. There is always uncertainty for the outcome, because the AI may reinforce troops as well.

Both systems have their advantages and I hope turn based Civ is not going away.
 
Tick based is an old concept btw. It was used in Sid Meyer's Railroad Tycoon. When paused, you build railroads, and when done, you let trains run their course and see how it works. It was very satisfying to watch.

But if Civ were a tick based, it would require a completely different design. City improvements or using workers would be annoying. RTS can't have that level of micromanagement, and that is sometimes better or worse. The combat would be different. In Civ it is one attack per turn and the results are known immediately. In HOI4, the battle can last days. You may have to consider pulling back or bringing reinforcements. There is always uncertainty for the outcome, because the AI may reinforce troops as well.

Both systems have their advantages and I hope turn based Civ is not going away.
To be clear: I'm not advocating for civ to become tick based, but there are many variations of turns nowadays that aren't "I'm doing all of my 76 actions in my turn, then you do all of your 45 in yours". I'm not sure which modifications would actually improve the feeling of the game for civ specifically though. Old World tried it with orders, which means the number of actions per turn are limited. I wonder if a tactical system in which you move/order units 1 by 1 and each of these moves takes a round (all of which happen within a single turn) after which all other players move a unit would enhance the battle and lessen some frustration with 1 UPT. If you have more units, you can of course use more rounds, while the others can't move anymore. It would certainly make the tactical game more interesting (and enrich decisions, because now the order of actions plays more of a role, not just doing the action), but maybe it would also be too tedious.
 
I think it would get tedious. If you are getting invaded by two nations at once, you can manage only other front, or both fronts only every 2nd round.
 
I think it would get tedious. If you are getting invaded by two nations at once, you can manage only other front, or both fronts only every 2nd round.
Exactly. But in your example, it would also mean that something like overextension actually exists. It would also mean that the commander-triggered attack would be a real option. Which, at least in my mind, looks a bit more thrilling than what we currently have.
 
I'll be as on-topic as I can currently be:

It looks like June-July-August have the same peak player count and the game found a floor (for the time being) around 11850 concurrent players. Let's hope that September with a meatier patch and two new civs will see a slight upward trend above 12k, and maybe even reaching 13k again.
 
I'll be as on-topic as I can currently be:

It looks like June-July-August have the same peak player count and the game found a floor (for the time being) around 11850 concurrent players. Let's hope that September with a meatier patch and two new civs will see a slight upward trend above 12k, and maybe even reaching 13k again.
That is peak count. The average count for June was only 6878, July was 6993. That's nearly 1000 down from May, and nearly 3500 down from April's average of 10444. The last 30 days count is slightly higher at the moment, at 7095. It will be interesting to see if August's average ends up more or less than the July 6993 figure.
But these averages are terrible. There's no getting away from that fact. In comparison, Civ 5 averaged 13,080 players in July.
 
That is peak count. The average count for June was only 6878, July was 6993. That's nearly 1000 down from May, and nearly 3500 down from April's average of 10444. The last 30 days count is slightly higher at the moment, at 7095. It will be interesting to see if August's average ends up more or less than the July 6993 figure.
But these averages are terrible. There's no getting away from that fact. In comparison, Civ 5 averaged 13,080 players in July.
Its a bad floor but it seems to be a floor (~7k average or 11k peak for month)
 
To be clear: I'm not advocating for civ to become tick based, but there are many variations of turns nowadays that aren't "I'm doing all of my 76 actions in my turn, then you do all of your 45 in yours". I'm not sure which modifications would actually improve the feeling of the game for civ specifically though. Old World tried it with orders, which means the number of actions per turn are limited. I wonder if a tactical system in which you move/order units 1 by 1 and each of these moves takes a round (all of which happen within a single turn) after which all other players move a unit would enhance the battle and lessen some frustration with 1 UPT. If you have more units, you can of course use more rounds, while the others can't move anymore. It would certainly make the tactical game more interesting (and enrich decisions, because now the order of actions plays more of a role, not just doing the action), but maybe it would also be too tedious.
If I remember correctly, the first Endless Space game had simultaneous turns. I wonder if something like that could be interesting in Civ?
 
That is peak count. The average count for June was only 6878, July was 6993. That's nearly 1000 down from May, and nearly 3500 down from April's average of 10444. The last 30 days count is slightly higher at the moment, at 7095. It will be interesting to see if August's average ends up more or less than the July 6993 figure.
But these averages are terrible. There's no getting away from that fact. In comparison, Civ 5 averaged 13,080 players in July.

Where is Civ6?
 
Thanks for the additional numbers. They seem tell the exact same story: concurrent player count stabilized in the pats three months after having taken heavy losses in the 4 months after release. In an optimal world (for civ 7), that would be the floor and beginning of a slow but steady rise. But iirc, both V and VI had their all time lows later in their lifecycles.
 
If I remember correctly, the first Endless Space game had simultaneous turns. I wonder if something like that could be interesting in Civ?
All amplitude games have it afaik. I like it personally, but it plays out a bit differently, as actual battles are fought on tactical maps with different rules, and not simultaneously - at least in Endless Legend and Humankind, I haven‘t played any Endless Space. Yet, as I remember, on here and the amplitude forum, some civ veterans were very vocal about how simultaneous turns would ruin their experience, basically turning civ into an RTS that is won by who clicks the fastest.
 
All amplitude games have it afaik. I like it personally, but it plays out a bit differently, as actual battles are fought on tactical maps with different rules, and not simultaneously - at least in Endless Legend and Humankind, I haven‘t played any Endless Space. Yet, as I remember, on here and the amplitude forum, some civ veterans were very vocal about how simultaneous turns would ruin their experience, basically turning civ into an RTS that is won by who clicks the fastest.
There are definite downsides to that mechanic. If there was a way to put out a mod or a special game mode that used it, I believe it would be a worthwhile test.
 
There are definite downsides to that mechanic. If there was a way to put out a mod or a special game mode that used it, I believe it would be a worthwhile test.
I think with the way civ handles battles since civ 5, it’s difficult to bring in. As individual units fight their mini-battles, it could mean that not paying attention at the start of a turn could mean the other player lands 3 or 5 attacks before you react. In the Amplitude games, this is different, as the worst than can happen is that a battle is triggered and you need to decide whether to accept it or retreat.

But honestly, I’m up for testing anything that breaks through the „I’m declaring a war now, get + 5 war support, and pick off 4 of your units before you can react and basically have already won the first battle right now“ routine. At least you can now turn this around though, if you ask the enemy that‘s rallying their troops to retreat with the diplo action, then you might have the chance to strike first.
 
That is peak count. The average count for June was only 6878, July was 6993. That's nearly 1000 down from May, and nearly 3500 down from April's average of 10444. The last 30 days count is slightly higher at the moment, at 7095. It will be interesting to see if August's average ends up more or less than the July 6993 figure.
But these averages are terrible. There's no getting away from that fact. In comparison, Civ 5 averaged 13,080 players in July.
It's quite normal for a game to lose players following it's opening months before stabilising.
 
I think with the way civ handles battles since civ 5, it’s difficult to bring in. As individual units fight their mini-battles, it could mean that not paying attention at the start of a turn could mean the other player lands 3 or 5 attacks before you react. In the Amplitude games, this is different, as the worst than can happen is that a battle is triggered and you need to decide whether to accept it or retreat.

But honestly, I’m up for testing anything that breaks through the „I’m declaring a war now, get + 5 war support, and pick off 4 of your units before you can react and basically have already won the first battle right now“ routine. At least you can now turn this around though, if you ask the enemy that‘s rallying their troops to retreat with the diplo action, then you might have the chance to strike first.
Having some sort of border engagement/limited war mechanic might be worth considering.
 
I think simultaneous turns initially annoyed me in games but I have grown to enjoy them. I sometimes turn them on in Age of Wonders and play that way as it adds a little extra spice to the experience. Yes, it can be frustrating when the AI units are running around the map while you are as they sometimes grab a pickup right when you were going to or occasionally block your pathing; but I started finding those moments fun. Just means I need to plan more, but I like the unexpected quality that simultaneous turns offer.

Probably works better for folks that enjoy a lot of randomness in 4X or having to adapt to unforeseen events.
 
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