Players too limiting?

[fuzzy_bunnies]

So... I like to meet new civs... and I don't like to have to micromanage a dozen cities. I like the expansion phase until oh... maybe 5-6 cities then it starts to get boring.

Case in point:

I recently switched to playing Large maps because you can get more AI players to meet but while playing the erebus map I found huge swathes of land near me that were uninhabited. Not interesting land either, just sort of hilly forested plains but enough for probably 20 cities. The only other AI player on my side of the world was the Malakim who (obviously) got screwed in the middle of a patch of desert because they still only had one city.

IIRC if you crank up the number of civs on a standard map it automatically bumps the map size up... but is there any way to bypass that?

 

[Demus]

18 civs on a duel map, still pretty crowded

 

[nealhunt]

IIRC if you crank up the number of civs on a standard map it automatically bumps the map size up... but is there any way to bypass that?

My understanding is you have to crank the number up pretty high before you bump against the cap that starts expanding the map. I don't know the exact numbers but I'm sure one of the code monkeys hereabouts could provide the exact numbers. The point is that you should be able to put 10 o 12 civs on a standard map without it changing.

 

[onedreamer]

IIRC if you crank up the number of civs on a standard map it automatically bumps the map size up... but is there any way to bypass that?

no it doesn't bump the map size, you are talking about the sea level (in the erebus mapscript). With erebus, you can have about 4 cities (not megacities but decent ones) civs with 12 civs on standard, 15 large, 18 huge. I find this setup a lot more interesting than the default one, although after much testing of the Erebus map I find it too unbalanced and unrealayable compared to the solid mapscripts from vanilla civ.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

ahh ok good to know. I used to play BTS online with a buddy of mine and found that it would bump the map size up if we added too many AI players. It wasn't much, like 6 or 7 and I thought that happened when we tried it here too. Good to know, thanks!

 

[OzzyKP]

I agree the game gets boring if you have too many cities. I enjoy one city challenges. Much fun with the Sidar.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I tend to enjoy the game more with a small empire as well. although, I've found that citizen automation and building queues make it a lot easier to manage a huge empire and still have fun

btw on Erebus mapscript using default number of civs leads to utter loneliness. adding a couple more is recommended in order to have more fun while still keeping some unsettled wildlands around till the endgame lately I've found large maps with 12 civs to be really enjoyable.

 

[Ri-Hatz]

Small Empires is definitely more fun, at least for me.
About 6 up to 8 cities. (And some unsettled land between empires.)

I think some game mechanics are needed which limit the over-expanions.

It should be something that restricts you from building too many cities in the beginning and middle game and tends to wear of later in the game.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that's already in the game with distance manteinance. it's not fair to keep people from being able to have huge empires just because some of us don't like that

 

[EmptyWolf]

Small Empires is definitely more fun, at least for me.
About 6 up to 8 cities. (And some unsettled land between empires.)

I think some game mechanics are needed which limit the over-expanions.

It should be something that restricts you from building too many cities in the beginning and middle game and tends to wear of later in the game.

In Civ 4 BTS and FFH there are already heavy maintenance costs for over-expanding too soon so the game mechanics are there, along with needing garrissons in newly built cities.

Huge maps with low sea level allow for more space between civs for the longest time. But if you want everything scaled down to you and the AI having 6 to 8 cities a smaller map size would be best such as standard or small, probably with less than 19 civs.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

that's already in the game with distance manteinance. it's not fair to keep people from being able to have huge empires just because some of us don't like that

Yea, that's what's so frustrating... I can see all this empty land that's mediocre (not bad, just not great) and the expander in my wants to fill it up with cities.. but I know my costs go up exponentially so I can't afford to expand that fast so its just sitting there.. teasing me.

Maybe I'll try advanced start with no settlers (I forget who it was that always plays that). Would make for some wild and woolly barb invasions, that's for sure.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

well, you can still fill it with cities by using the winter palace and the forbidden palace wisely, using merchant specialist and lots of cottages. if it's still not enough you can always go order, -80% maintenance is great maybe your tech rate won't be as good as before, but you will have tons and tons of production that's for sure. and you can always liberate them as a colony I guess ( or does it specifically need that the cities are on a different continent? if so, it would be a lot better to be able to create colonies even if on the same continent ... )

 

[Mailbox]

I'd like a game option where you can set the total number of cities per civilization. That way you wouldn't be stuck with OCC or Advanced Start to limit the number of cities.

 

[avalonnn]

I would prefer to play massive civs, especially if cranking the Khazad war machine of hammers, but am running small maps due to slow downs.

 

[SwordofStriker]

My understanding is you have to crank the number up pretty high before you bump against the cap that starts expanding the map. I don't know the exact numbers but I'm sure one of the code monkeys hereabouts could provide the exact numbers. The point is that you should be able to put 10 o 12 civs on a standard map without it changing.

No, 33 is my tested limit in FFH II and 36 in another mod (on standard sized maps), but I believe it goes to 40. I'm playing a 33 civ game on a standard sized map right now so I'm not sure what this automatic map size increase is you guys are all talking about. I don't seem to have that issue/problem.

I believe that is the way it works for BTS but I could be wrong about that. Are you guys not using BTS?

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

No, 33 is my tested limit in FFH II and 36 in another mod (on standard sized maps), but I believe it goes to 40. I'm playing a 33 civ game on a standard sized map right now so I'm not sure what this automatic map size increase is you guys are all talking about. I don't seem to have that issue/problem.

I believe that is the way it works for BTS but I could be wrong about that. Are you guys not using BTS?

Odd. Are you sure it didn't bump the map size up? At 36 civs, you should have 0 room to expand.... IE you should only have your first city and be surrounded by enemy civs.

I mean, with the map size increase it doesn't ever tell you... when I noticed it, we were playing for a while and realized that we had a lot more empty room between each other than we normally had (we added 2 more AIs). After we centered the map, we realized it automatically loaded a large size map instead of standard. NB: this is with vanilla civ and BTS.

 

[SwordofStriker]

Odd. Are you sure it didn't bump the map size up? At 36 civs, you should have 0 room to expand.... IE you should only have your first city and be surrounded by enemy civs.

I mean, with the map size increase it doesn't ever tell you... when I noticed it, we were playing for a while and realized that we had a lot more empty room between each other than we normally had (we added 2 more AIs). After we centered the map, we realized it automatically loaded a large size map instead of standard. NB: this is with vanilla civ and BTS.

I only play custom games so maybe that has something to do with. Yes I am sure the map size is standard since I check all my settings before starting the game.

You are right about 36 civs on a standard map though. You pretty much have to war early 95% of the time to grow.

 

[onedreamer]

fuzzy bunnies, as I already said, AFAIK the map size is NOT adjusted with the number of civs, not in Civ4, Warlords, BtS and FFH2; that would be pretty dumb to do wouldn't it ? It would mean you would have no control on how "crowdy" the world would be since distances would always get adjusted, and a standard map wouldn't be standard at all.
The only automatic adjustment I know of is in the Erebus mapscript and it regards sea level, meaning that if you put high sea level the map will be enlarged to ensure there are enough land tiles, which incidentally kinda means the sea level won't be high, so again you have no control on this option and it would be just as good as greyed out.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

agreed that the way sea level is handled in Erebus mapscript is weird
but, it's definitely not useless. basically, with low sea level most sea will be coast and easily navigable, while high sea level will mean that most sea will be ocean and you'll need better ships to get to other continents

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

fuzzy bunnies, as I already said, AFAIK the map size is NOT adjusted with the number of civs, not in Civ4, Warlords, BtS and FFH2; that would be pretty dumb to do wouldn't it ? It would mean you would have no control on how "crowdy" the world would be since distances would always get adjusted, and a standard map wouldn't be standard at all.
The only automatic adjustment I know of is in the Erebus mapscript and it regards sea level, meaning that if you put high sea level the map will be enlarged to ensure there are enough land tiles, which incidentally kinda means the sea level won't be high, so again you have no control on this option and it would be just as good as greyed out.

Oh, duh, I see what you mean. Maybe we just saw tons of empty land and assumed the map expanded. Either way though, the result is the same. Higher civ count = more land and my original question is at what point the land area increases in response to more civs.