Playing as a civ that starts with fishing + hunting

[futurehermit]

Ok, I'd like to request some help.

I really want to play a game with Alex, but his starting techs always turn me off: hunting + fishing.

What do you do when you start inland with a civ like this?

Let me give you an example:

With Hatty (ag + wheel + creative) I research usually: anhusb-mining-bronze-pottery-writing-alpha-myst-poly-lit (with the goal of suing for myst/hunt/fish in first war). With creative no need for early myst: no monuments. I love how strong this opening feels! I am always able to go worker first because I have an abundance of worker techs to keep my worker busy (I will sometimes go worker-worker-settler start as well).

With Alex, there seem to be so many tech needs...

Need ag + anhusb to get growing

Need mining + bronze for copper/slavery

Need wheel + pottery for cottages/granaries

Need myst for border popping

Then writing-alpha-lit (and the late lit time threatens the loss of GL...)

I notice quite a drastic difference in the opening of these two leaders. The combination of ag + wheel + creative always draws me back to hatty, but I really like Alex's trait combination for domination attempt and if I could just figure out how to manage a better opening with him I think I would be in good shape with him.

Oh yes, one other thing I forgot with Alex...

I want to attack early. With Hatty I have the option of doing so with either copper or war chariots.

I hate attacking with wimpy normal chariots. If there is a city on a hill even without spears it is hard to take out the archers.

So, that means if no copper, there is a need to work ironworking in early if I want to rush asap (i.e., not wait until alpha and trading for iron). Should I just give up on an early attack and just accept only attacking post-construction? Seems like a waste of the uu though...

Any advice would be appreciated

 

[ratrangerm]

Been a while since I played as Alex. I really need to actually finish a game with him as the leader.

Personally, I find it works best to base things on the land you have. If there's lots of forest to chop, then Mining/BW is the way to go. If it's River territory, go for Wheel so you can jump to Pottery (I know in Vanilla CIV, you don't need Ag/Wheel to get Pottery, you can get it through Fishing/Wheel). Grain resources mean Ag goes at the top of your list, livestock means a beeline to AH is in order.

While getting Combat I warriors may not seem like much, it can help against barbie Warriors until you can get a better unit. Then when they win battles, you can make them Medics and use them to accompany stacks of stronger units.

Anyway, base your first tech choices on the land surrounding your capital and you should be fine with Alex.

Oh, and as far as early attacks go, you can probably still do them after getting IW if you don't find Copper. You can then build a stack with a mix of Phalanxs and Axemen and maybe a couple of Swordsmen.

 

[futurehermit]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I do except my frustration comes from the number of things it seems I have to research when compared to Hatty

Of course with a coastal capital fishing comes in handy but when I start inland with hunting and fishing it's kinda rough...

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Fishing is just really hit-or-miss, and Hunting is a bad compliment for it due to its limited potential for workers(only three campable resoursces.) Nonetheless, it lends itself to AH and early Archery, I guess...

 

[KMadCandy]

they're not my favorite techs to start with, that's for sure. but when i'm playing no barbs, being able to make scouts to go out hut popping is a good benefit, they move faster than warriors and get better stuff.

 

[aelf]

Hunting gives you Phalanxes (with BW and copper). I don't see anything wrong with that

 

[notagoodname]

Unless you build a worker before growing you can still get to animal husbandry or bronze working before the worker is completed. So don't start building a worker until you have grown to at least 2 pop and from then on just play your natural game.

It's a slight disadvantage compared to civs that build workers from the start or civs that slave out an early worker but it really isn't that bad.

 

[malekithe]

You can't really play balanced openings with Alex. You need to get vertical (or horizontal, as it were) on the tech tree quicker. Bronze would be a very high priority, with workers used mostly for chopping out settlers. A coastal start is, of course, ideal; though livestock isn't bad as a food source either. After grabbing AH, you could immediately start on Writing, chop a fast library and get to work on the great people. Maybe even use a quick great person to grab math or research up to alphabet early and backfill all the techs you skipped. Alex is going to have slightly more trouble with predominantly floodplains, or any other land-locked start where your primary food source is grain and you're short on forests.

Also, in the likely event that a first worker would have no tasks available, it's probably best to simply start with a scout or two. Meet more rivals much sooner, know where more resources are, grab more goody huts, and determine the best places to expand to after you've chopped out an early settler.

 

[Sisiutil]

FH, it sounds like this was partly inspired by our beloved Canada mod, in which our country shares Greece's opening techs.

It's a game and I like to enjoy it, so I have, in the past, shamelessly regenerated the map to get a fishing or camping resource in the capital's fat cross.

Beyond that, if I start with Hunting, I'll build one or two Scouts right off the bat. They'll reach more huts and encounter other civs earlier; there's a good chance that they'll pop some huts for other techs, or at least gold to help you research at 100% for longer. They make decent fog-busters once their exploring days are done, and when Optics comes along you can load them onto Caravels. You never know when you'll encounter that isolated, undiscovered goody hut that will give you Astronomy!

With Fishing, an early diversion to Sailing makes sense if you're on the coast, for the early trade routes and ships to go exploring. It might make sense to choose an islands map with Alexander in order to ensure this starting tech is more valuable--though that may decrease the utility of Scouts.

 

[Blaarg]

I like Hunting as a starting tech. Having a scout from the beginging (opposed to a warrior) is Sooo much better. More Goodie Huts, better results.

Last game I played as Frederick and got Bronze Working from my first Goodie Hut!

 

[futurehermit]

it's not either tech individually, it's the combination of the two. a worker just doesn't have anything to do forever, especially when starting inland...

might have a start with corn and grassland cows, but how long will it take to get them online? could go scout-worker and ag-anhusb but then after the worker is done improving these two resources he may not have anything to do! could go wheel next to give him something to do, but then you don't have copper visible for first settler...or you can delay your first settler...

or you can go mining-bronze at the outset and stare at the two undeveloped food resources in your bfc...

 

[cabert]

it's not either tech individually, it's the combination of the two. a worker just doesn't have anything to do forever, especially when starting inland...

might have a start with corn and grassland cows, but how long will it take to get them online? could go scout-worker and ag-anhusb but then after the worker is done improving these two resources he may not have anything to do! could go wheel next to give him something to do, but then you don't have copper visible for first settler...or you can delay your first settler...

or you can go mining-bronze at the outset and stare at the two undeveloped food resources in your bfc...

if you have corn and cows, you'll be teching agri>AH, agri will be done before the worker comes out and AH will be done before the worker is done farming the corn.
That is really not a problem.
One thing is sure, you want agri at some point
Do you need it straight away? I don't think so.

 

[futurehermit]

Yes, I could go ag-anhusb but like I said after improving the two resources, the worker is standing around for a number of turns unless there are a number of hills (go mining-bronze next)...

 

[cabert]

Yes, I could go ag-anhusb but like I said after improving the two resources, the worker is standing around for a number of turns unless there are a number of hills (go mining-bronze next)...

really? one farm isn't enough IMHO
plus the next tech you'd want is either
- wheel for pottery (and chariots, since you have the horses in sight)
- mining>BW for phalanxes
If you go to wheel, you have roads to build to your next city, then farming there, if you go for mining, you have mines to build.

Personnaly, I'd build farms a lot at this point : making settlers faster is good!

 

[futurehermit]

Yeah, I guess I am mainly referring to a couple specific starts I got: few hills and the ones that were there were forested, no river for farms, one farmable, one herdable.

So, basically if I went ag-anhusb scout-worker the worker could develop those two tiles but then would have nothing to do until end of bronze if next I went mining-bronze. If I went wheel then that would make it so my first settler wouldn't have copper visible (unless I delayed first settler).

Anyways, I tried again last night a couple games and started getting a bit better openings. I'm just so used to playing as hatty (ag-wheel-creative) and having a very efficient opening: anhusb-mining-bronze.

Basically, what I'm saying is I'm spoiled and need to get used to playing with other leaders

 

[cabert]

There are many good leaders out there:
- hatty (ramses has the same starting techs)
- Gandhi and Asoka
- Augustus
...
Playing any of those is like playing half a level below,
augustus is like playing 2 levels below

 

[futurehermit]

^^^rofl augustus, so...funny!

i really want to get good with alex. i think his traits fit my play style the best.

philosophical: FE/SE (duh)

aggressive: always pursue domination

i don't leverage spiritual enough when i have it (too tedious to be switching back and forth all the time )

i do miss creative though...

 

[lilnev]

Hunting, Fishing, and Mysticism are my least favorite starting techs, especially if I get two of them. Myst is certainly needed eventually (unless Creative), but it doesn't give the worker anything to do either.

In the start you described, I would have gone Ag-AH and worker first. Powering up your best tiles is just too important. Then probably the Wheel next, especially if you spy Horses. If the worker is truly left without a task, he can alway fogbust (just be careful how you move him).

peace,
lilnev

 

[PMabey]

I've played a couple of games as Alex but have always got lucky with my starts. I seem to remember one being coastal with 2 clams and another with copper on my capital city centre. Remember even on emperor and above you're likely to get at least one tech from huts. Thats the advantage of having hunting. I remember once i got horseback riding from a hut on about my 20th turn, having researched animal husbandry straight away.

 

[johnny_rico]

Alex is tough to play. There's not much synergy in his starting traits and techs. Ratrangerm said it best in using the land around you to dictate how you play.

Like Sisiutil, I'll regenerate the map with Alex if I don't have a coastal w/ seafood start. Scout, workboat, settler, worker with mining and bronze working as my first two techs. I want the UU online asap so if I lose a scout I'll build another. You want your second city in a dynamite location. It's also nice to have a close neighbor who founds a religion for you.

There's no doubt with Alex you're going to missing out on some techs you almost always have. You're simply not going to have the time to research ag, AH, Myst, potter, mining, BW, writing. A good start with Alex is reliant on a friendly map w/ a close nieghbor.

Even though Alex is aggresive I find him best suited for an early war (grind it out pre catapults to eliminate someone) and then building until medieval post optics with caravels cruising the oceans. Then I'll look to go to war again. Usually, not my style, I like being at war more often than not.

The oracle/MC/pyramids gambit is good with alex but it usually eliminates the aggresive trait and the peak time for the UU. He's one of the tougher leaders to play. Have you ever seen him dominant witht he AI? Quite often, he's a small potatoes pain in the arse.