Please add the Afrikaners as a Civilization!

[Abrie JF Kilian]

Greetings fellow Civilians!

Afrikaners (South Africa)
I did a study regarding nations that have made an impact on modern warfare and found one little nation that have contributed amazingly, but is not included. The Afrikaners from South Africa is a nation that has contributed to the development of modern warfare during the Anglo-Boor War (1899-1902). Historians have indicated that this war the end of the gentleman warfare and the start of warfare as we know it today.

Things like guerilla attacks were developed by General De Wett and still haunt Africa. These same Afrikaners developed ditch warfare, known as ‘loopgraaf’ to fight from due to the number difference they had. Loopgraaf warfare developed into dungeon warfare which the Germans used in the First and Second World Wars. Hitler in fact told his generals before the SWW to do a study of effective warfare against England and the studies pointed to the Afrikaners. Most of the British generals that fought against the Afrikaners used their experienced they obtained against the Afrikaners, in the FWW.

The Ruiters (Afrikaner Cavalry) is according to General Montgomery the best cavalry in history and the last. Because of their limited resources, Ruiters were trained to kill with on shot as some of them only entered the battle with 5 bullets. Accuracy ratio after an attack was 99%, making them the most accurate combatants in history.

Paul Kruger the first president of South Africa was the Nelson Mandela of the world during the turn of the 20th century.

Further studies also shown that up to today the most effective Special Forces in history in the world were the Recce’s from South Africa. Inhumane and emotionless, these groups were part of the South African Force that fought against communism in Angola. Following through on guerilla warfare, this Special Forces was responsible for bringing the communists on their knees in Africa.

Up to today the best Artillery the G5 and G6 has been developed by DANEL in South Africa and forms part of most of the world’s artillery. The Rooivalk attack helicopter is also the best attack helicopter in world. This 8 ton flying machine is the only helicopter to make a full loop. Based on the Hind design from Russia, this helicopter is the deadliest flying fortress in the world and makes the Apache look like a dinky toy.

With their roots in almost every part in Europe the Afrikaners is a mixture of Germanic brilliance and African richness. The culture group is also the only culture in Africa group that descents from Europe but that has it languages origin in Africa. Afrikaans is also the most modern language and the easiest language to learn in the world.

I vote for the Afrikaners to be added to the proud history of great civilizations. I hope that I convinced you guys to support me in this.

Please Mnr Sid Meyer, could you enter the Afrikaners in the esteem group of influential civilizations.
Thank you.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Hmm, they would be good for a scenario, but they haven't been around all that long, and might be perceived more as a European colony than a separate nation, similar to Australia/Canada, who are also not in Civ. Never achieved superpower status like the US, which is one argument for including US as a major civ.

They do make awfully good artillery, I'll say that for them.

 

[Xanthippus]

That's not a very fair remark. Australia is hardly "just a British colony", neither is Canada. In the same way, would you call Mexico "just a Spanish colony"? They are countries in their own right, and I think all would make excellent additions to the game. Especially Australia for world map games, because as it is there is no country to block India or China from unchallenged dominance of SE Asia. On that note, Indonesia would make a good addition too.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Sigh. I knew someone would bring that up. Yes they are all countries in their own right. But, have they played an EXTREMELY significant role on the world stage at any point in their history? That seems to be the qualification for entry into civ, for European nations and their offspring, at least.

Russia: influence over much of Eurasian landmass, superpower at one point.

US: current superpower.

English: ruled the high seas, controlled most world ocean trade once.

Dutch, Spanish, Portugese: all highly influential nations who colonized and had farflung possessions at one time or another.

You see my point.

 

[Abrie JF Kilian]

Hey Ivan.

Apart from opening the subject regarding the origin of nations, you make a good point. I just read something very interesting regarding the Afrikaners. South Africa under the Afrikaners guidance have achieved 3 golden eras. 1870’s, 1890’s and 1950’s. I do take note that eras in the modern day does not have the duration that ancient civilizations had, but because of the diamonds and then the gold found in South Africa, it made an impact on the whole world.

I don’t think that life span has got anything to do with great civilizations. Just as the US added to capitalism and democracy, the Afrikaners added to modern warfare. I also found on that because of isolation during the Aparheid era, that biological development on human medicine, medical science and biological warfare added to the first heart transplant by Dr C Barnard an Afrikaners.

There are masses of developments he spearheaded on the medical field. Due to isolation left the rest of the world behind. Development of Red Mercury, the South African Nuclear Project, which made the even the US tremble. I do speak under correction but wasn’t Kuberg in South Africa the first nuclear power station?

In 1989 South Africa made history by destroying all its nuclear weapons. The first in the world to take this step of faith. The South African Constitution developed in 1996 made history by being the first of its kind to protect minority groups. On the legal front, the Judge General of the International Criminal Court is a Afrikaner.

On the economical front the Closed Coporation Act has its origin in South Africa, developed by an Afrikaner. This act added to the devlopment of small business enterprises in the world. Even America was influences by this.

My question is: Does time predict a nation’s greatness or the influence it had on the world in general?

PS. Just for interest: Australian sheep originally comes from South Africa.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Well, the Afrikaners have built some very good weapons, but they have never had a pivotal effect on the art of war, like some other nations, for example, Germany: revolutionized modern war with the Panzer and Blitzkrieg tactics. United States: built the Bomb. Mongols: the Golden Horde, conquered much of the Old World with super-disciplined ancient cavalry.

South Africa is an interesting nation, worth reading up on. James Michener set one of his epic novels there, IIRC, be a good read for ppl interested in Afrikaner history. But, they were never a prince among nations at any point.

 

[KabeDerlin]

I'm with IVan here but in my opinion it doesn't really matter what nations they put in since the game as it is can be easily modded to have Afrikaners.

 

[sealman]

I am mixed here.
I do not think that Afrikaners should be included in the CIV series for the main reasons that Ivan has stated. On the other hand, I would like to see Africa represented more and the Afrikaners are a better choice than, say the pigmies.

On a side note, I never read Michener's book and must pick it up since I am a fan of his epic works. Author Wilbur Smith has written a series of Historical Fiction novels that cover this time frame in South African History. I would recommend those books (The Courtney Series) for any one interested in this period or anyone who is a fan of the Historical Fiction Genre.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Hmm, Afrikaner civilization would be regarded as more of a European flavor civilization with its culture, traditions, etc., some more native African civilizations would give better balance, as we have tons of European civs already. Maybe they will add in the Nubians for Civ4. All we have now are the Zulus, who only did their thing on the southern part of the continent. Of course we have Carthage and Egypt, though again this is sort of a different culture group.

 

[Abrie JF Kilian]

Greetings.

I’m glad that a debate has started surrounding this issue. Regarding the Blitzkriege: It comes from the Afrikaans ‘Blitskreig’ that was developed by General De Wet with his guerilla tactics. Because of the ties the Germans and the Afrikaners had, it was learned from the Afrikaners and applied to World Wars. Up to the Anglo-Boor War was fought in the traditional Imperialistic way of facing each other and shooting it out. De Wet developed trench war fare to give the Boors a chance of defeating the British. De Wet developed the ‘Blitskreig’ to surprise the British in the mornings while they are still waking up. The end of the Gentlemen warfare!

General De Wet’s contribution towards Modern war fare is as follows:

- Trench war fare.
- Blitskreig
- Guerilla war fare

Above mentioned contributions are still part of war fare today and extremely important.

The Afrikaner culture actually developed from the Malayan people that were slaves in the Cape of Good Hope. The language originates from Kitchen Dutch that was a combination of Dutch, Malayan and later on French and English. Due to the shortage of women in the Cape, the settlers took the Malayan women as wives. Although there are still strong ties with the Dutch, there are also strong ties with Malayans. The Afrikaners are not pure European. Its also the only culture group in the world that has a European flavored culture with strong African Tribalism.

When the contribution regarding Africa development was mentioned, South Africa is the pioneer in African development and influence. Ivan, when you mention global contribution I can’t help asking what the Zulus have contributed? Apart from the last name in the Signaling Alphabet. The Zulus and the Afrikaners were great adversaries and great allies as well against the British. The Zulus can’t be recognized without the mentioning of the Afrikaners.

Considering the US, even the global name given to the Americans is ‘Yankee’ originating from the Dutch ‘Jan Kees’. The American dollar come from the Dutch Currence Rejksdaalder, that became the American Riks Dollar and of course today the Dollar. The question can then be asked: “Would America be today if it wasn’t for European influence and do they still have a European flavor?” I try to think of contribution and not flavor.

My request”
Adding the Afrikaners will add to the diversity of Southern Africa as you requested. My request is to have the Egyptians and Carthaginians from the North and the Afrikaners and Zulu in the south of Africa. Adding to four nations from and representing Africa. Not all Africans are black.

 

[Zild]

Wow, from your posts it sounds like Afrikaners invented just about everything!

I think I must agree with you on two points in particular. If another African civ should be added, some representation of South Africa strikes me as the best choice - I would say that South Africa is the most powerful and dominant nation in modern Africa, even moreso than Egypt, in my opinion. And as with Australia, I think the addition of another African civ could bring balance to world-based campaigns. That said, I'm not sure whether the civ should be Afrikaner or South Africa...

I've never heard anything before about South African helicopters, special forces or artillery, but you've got me interested now!

I do, however, know where Nelson Mandella studied at university. I studied there too

 

[rhialto]

In Africa, we have seen teh following civs:

Egypt
Carthage
Zulus

In other words, the two extreme ends. How about some geographical balance? I'd propose we add Mali and Ethiopia. In teh middle ages, Mali was fielding armies hundreds of times bigger than anything Europe could put up at the time, and Mansa Musa as their leader would be quite appropriate. Ethiopia was supposedly the home to the ark of the covenant, established its own brand of Christianity, and fought successful campaigns against the Arab conquests of the time. Anyone who can beat a then-superpower off has to be worth something.

 

[Xanthippus]

In Africa, we have seen teh following civs:

Egypt
Carthage
Zulus

In other words, the two extreme ends. How about some geographical balance? I'd propose we add Mali and Ethiopia. In teh middle ages, Mali was fielding armies hundreds of times bigger than anything Europe could put up at the time, and Mansa Musa as their leader would be quite appropriate. Ethiopia was supposedly the home to the ark of the covenant, established its own brand of Christianity, and fought successful campaigns against the Arab conquests of the time. Anyone who can beat a then-superpower off has to be worth something.

Second.

By the Middle Ages the importance of Ethiopia was very little. Their vanguard of Christianity in Africa is hardly as impressive as when they nearly conquered Europe. Yes, I'm serious, in the Classical period they conquered Egypt, pushed back the flagging Persian Empire and began to prepare to jump into Europe through Greece when their King died and the Empire collapsed. There's even a Civ 2 scenario on the whole thing. That was their Golden Age; and even after their failure to conquer Europe, they were still the largest and most powerful African Kingdom for many years to come, until they were struck with famine and the rising Arabian Empire blocked their access to the Arabian Sea.

 

[Shabbaman]

It's hard to disagree with someone who wants his own nation added to civ. It's harder to agree when some facts disagree with things you know yourself. For instance, I'm fairly certain that the afrikaner culture does not come from "Malayan people that were slaves in the Cape of Good Hope" (why malayans would hang to african tribalism seems pretty odd, considering the geographical location of Malaya). To me, and probably to all dutch indoctrinated by our school system, the afrikaner are descendants of dutch settlers there, together with other European emigrants. Strangely enough, Wiki agrees with me as well.
You've presented very little that sets South Africa apart from any other nation. Achievements like "having the Judge General of the International Criminal Court" can be named for any country, the same for the first heart transplant. The first microscope? Anthony van Leeuwenhoeck. (Location of the International Criminal Court? The Hague. Wow, the dutch must be the greatest civilization in the world! Let's put them in civ4!)
There's definately something that sets South Africa apart from the rest of the world, and that are the developments done during the time of their isolation. The weapons developed in that period are outstanding, and SA is afaik still one of the main arms dealers in the world. The reason for that isolation is probably the same why Nelson Mandela isn't very flattered by your comparison between him and Paul Kruger.

 

[Abrie JF Kilian]

Greetings.

Reading Shabbaman’s comments I cant help biting my tongue. It’s true what you said on debating a person that believe that his civilization should be their. I’m an Afrikaner and Civilization has had tremendous support in South Africa from allot of Afrikaners. Anglo-Afrikaners and Boere-Afrikaners alike.

Still my question is unanswered.
Is being a world power the only criteria which a nation gets recognized in civilization?
What about a contribution towards global life as we know it?

What has the following civilizations contributed towards the global life?
The Zulus
The Iroquois
The Indians

The Zulus are were a great nation and even I speak Zulu fluently and grew up with the Zulu culture. The Zulu culture received clear definition when the Afrikaner Culture was being established.

Still my request is to add the Afrikaners as the nation that brings balance to the Zulus and a better defined Southern African representation.

I will even assist in writing the historical background on the Afrikaners. Everybody agree that on warfare the Afrikaners have made significant contributions. All I need is a bit of support from you guys. Afrikaner recognition will surely pay off in the sales of Civilization 4 amongst Afrikaners in South Africa and the huge Afrikaner ‘colonies’ in Brittan and Australasia.

Yours sincerely
Abrie JF Kilian

PS. And still yet who can forget that great writer, JRR Tolkien who was born in Bloemfontein, South Africa and was born an Anglo-Afrikaner.

 

[Abrie JF Kilian]

Afrikaners as a Civilization
Militaristic Industrious

Leaders:
Oom Paul Kruger (Male)
Johanna Brandt (Female)

Militaristic
Fanatic in war fare as they believe that they fight for the land God has given them. According to General Montgomery, the Afrikaners had the best Mounted Cavalry(Die Ruiters) since Genghis Khan and the Mongol Horde.

Industrious
SASOL was a brain child of General Hertzog and is today one of the foremost industrial corporations in the world regarding Steel, Oil and Fuel.

Unique unit
- Ruiter - An upgraded Cavalry unit (6.3.3?) – Industrial Age
- G6 Artillery – could have an extra range (?) – Modern Age
- Rooivalk Attack Helicopter – (?) – Modern Age

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Well, the criteria for inclusion in Civ seems to be that a civ has to have been dominant among its culture group. Thus, though the Zulus were pretty pathetic in terms of power compared to European civs of the time, they still were far and above the other African tribes around them, thus they get included. Same with the MesoAmerican civs. Spain had little trouble smashing them, but before that, they dominated all the other tribes about them. Since Afrikaners are more of a European civ, they would be considered in this light, and thus they do not qualify as a major civ.

 

[Xanthippus]

Well, the criteria for inclusion in Civ seems to be that a civ has to have been dominant among its culture group. Thus, though the Zulus were pretty pathetic in terms of power compared to European civs of the time, they still were far and above the other African tribes around them, thus they get included. Same with the MesoAmerican civs. Spain had little trouble smashing them, but before that, they dominated all the other tribes about them. Since Afrikaners are more of a European civ, they would be considered in this light, and thus they do not qualify as a major civ.

Actually, Spain had a lot of trouble fighting the Aztecs and Incans. The Spanish armies were incredibly inferior numerically to those of the Meso American tribes, and guns didn't really mean much once they got into close quarters. The American tribes would rush the small Spaniard armies and quite often over run them. Later, the tribes started to adopt the Spanish technology, stealing guns and gunpowder where possible and using them against the Spanish. If the Spaniards hadn't played it smart and set the factions within the tribes against one another, then marched in and taken over once both sides were weakened, they may never have succeeded at all.

Anyway, that's off topic, but I love my digressions. I don't think that all of the nations in Civ are super powers. The Hitites, for example, while undeniably a powerful nation, they were very brief and I don't think had any huge impression on the Middle East. My knowledge of them is a little shaky, so maybe someone will correct me on this, but all I know of them is raiding Mycenae and then being wiped out.

Another example is the Koreans. Sure, they did some remarkable things, like resist the Japanese invasion, and invent some cool things, but I would never call them a super power. Ditto for India; important, yes, but not a super power. And if you want to call the Mughal Empire a super power (which I could agree with), they were Arabs from the Persian desert who conquered the north of India, not Indians. Similarly, the Iroquois were NOT a super power. Aztecs, Mayans and Incans, yes; Iroquois, no.

Point is: super power status isn't, and shouldn't, be required in my opinion. The civs included should be selected to add variety, balance things out (on a world map, for example, with proper placements, the included civs are very important for such), and their contribution to the world, not how powerful they were. If that were only the case, then bump off all the Civs aforementioned because they don't make the cut. I'll throw my support in behind the Afrikaners because I think they would make an interesting Civ, and I agree, they would counter balance the Zulu, which typically have unchallenged somination of the majority of South Africa. Even in RAR, with the addition of Ethiopia and Mali, they take most of it.

Other civs I would like to see added and why:

Indonesia: A great power in their own right today; terribly important culture for SE Asia; counter-balance to China, India and Japan gaining dominance in SE Asia.

Australia: Hey, it's my home country; rising power; the first nation to free itself from its founder with diplomacy, not war; another counter-balance to domination of SE Asia; we were in CTP!

Sioux: If the Iroquois are in, the Sioux should be too; counter-balance to Iroquois and America.

Polynesia: Interesting Civ; check on dominance of those islands.

Mali and Ethiopia: For the reasons already discussed.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Well, the Hittites were quite the expansionists while they were around, they did dominate their little region during their time, AND they are widely believed to be the civ responsible for bringing the secret of iron working into the world, a major civ advance.

Iroquois: I think these guys are meant to represent the entire Mississippian culture, a whole group of tribes engaging in advanced agriculture, mound building, etc. Taken as a whole all those tribes represented a significant civilized presence on the North American continent, even if they weren't actually unified. I would like to see the Sioux in also, though they were more nomadic, and would not really meet the definition of a settled civilization.

Your comments on the Spanish in MesoAmerica are correct, divide and conquer is always a good strategy.

Indonesia and Polynesia would be good additions also, maybe less so for Polynesia, as they were a scattered island culture. Be nice for a good island map though.

Australia: hmmm. You are quite civilized, but - your words are not backed with nuclear weapons.

 

[No idea]

About trench warfare, the maoris in New Zealand also used trench warfare to great effect against the british in the New Zealand wars of the 1860's. They would go into their pa's (forts with palisade walls and lots of lines of trenches) and fire from the trenches with muskets and then they would retreat into tunnels built underneath the pa when the british were getting close. Then when the british entered the pa the maori's would ambush them using melee weapons. Then, if the british force was becoming hard to keep out of the pa the maori's could retreat through tunnels to the surrounding countryside. This often resulted in high casulties for the british and low casulties for the maori's.

Ande why don't you make it so that you join zululand and the afrikaaners? you could use zulu units early on, and afrikaans units later.