Policies

[Txurce]

The revised list looks good. Thinking about what Seek said, I wonder if Trade Unions should just come earlier in the tree. I think it has purpose and value, but may not be as strong as the other policies.

With regard to the diplomats, are you intending to incorporate CSD into TBC, or leave it optional? Given its impact, I would definitely prefer the optional approach.

 

[Thalassicus]

I also try to make sure the policies make sense thematically. It'd be odd for unionizing to come before mercantilism/protectionism, though if we could think of other names for the policies that might work.

CSD is optional since it's purely xml edits (data). I only add things to this mod if it's necessary, which are Lua edits (user interface).

 

[Seek]

Hmm, well the effects of Protectionism could work just as well under the Trade Union moniker (since TUs help to make labor happy) and the TU effects under Protectionism could represent increased efficiency in domestic trade - so maybe just an effect switch between them would be fine.

 

[SlightlyMad]

Something worth knowing is I'm trying to figure out why diplomats are not purchasable. They can be bought in normal CSD, but for some reason they're not showing up with CiVUP installed. I want diplomats to be equally cost-effective as buildings so it's a viable strategy to spend gold on citystates even in the early game.

I don't think they're supposed to be purchasable. I asked Gazebo about disabling gold gifts entirely but making it possible to buy diplomats and send them over, but I believe he said that the AI can't be taught to buy them, so it has to be disabled to keep things fair.

 

[Thalassicus]

They can be bought in normal CSD though. The problem is they disappear off the production popup when in purchase mode.

In this case we've gotta balance two things:

• Fun-level if gold can't be used on citystates.
• Fun-level if the human can get diplomats a little faster than AIs.

I do feel the first outweighs the second in importance.The AI can spend gold on citystates - they get a gold bonus and hoard gold, so they can afford the big purchase costs. I've also been seeing feedback that production outweighs gold right now.

 

[Busdriver]

I look forward to trying the new commerce tree. I think adding a policy that buffs merchants (perhaps an increase in gpp) might also be good somewhere in there, which would synergize with the +2 for customs houses.

Also, would it be possible to add specialist slots to buildings through SPs? I think adding this to the tradition tree (perhaps in landed elite instead of +1 for specialists) could make early specialist play more interesting.

 

[Thalassicus]

I could do something like this:

• Subsidies
  -25% Purchase cost of units and buildings.
• Mercantilism
  +1 from each Luxury.
  +1 from Merchant specialists.

It's not possible to add specialists to a building through policies, or change their GPP yield.

 

[Stalker0]

I could do something like this:

• Subsidies
  -25% Purchase cost of units and buildings.
• Mercantilism
  +1 from each Luxury.
  +1 from Merchant specialists.

It's not possible to add specialists to a building through policies, or change their GPP yield.

That would be nice, though merchants tend to my the least used specialist...at least for me.

 

[Thalassicus]

I've been considering ways to fix that, my goal is for production and gold to be closer in value.

 

[Seek]

So after playing a game with the changes to Commerce last night, these are my thoughts: Commerce and Trade Unions are too weak, and Merchant Navy is too strong at first tier. I also think the opening Commerce policy should boost in some way immediately. So here's a proposal:

⇒⇘_____________________⇗ Merchant Navy
⇗⇘Commerce ⇒ Mercantilism ⇒ Protectionism ⇒ Patent Law
⇒⇗________ ⇘ Trade Unions ⇗

Commerce
+25% in Capital.
-25% Purchase cost for tiles.

Mercantilism
-25% Purchase cost for units and buildings.

Trade Unions
+1 Movement for civilian units.
-25% Maintenance for Roads and Railroads.

Protectionism
+1 Happiness per luxury.

Merchant Navy
+1 Movement and +1 Sight for naval units.
+2 Production in coastal cities. (was 3)

Patent Law
+1 on Villages, Fishing Boats, and Customs Houses.

 

[Txurce]

So after playing a game with the changes to Commerce last night, these are my thoughts: Commerce and Trade Unions are too weak, and Merchant Navy is too strong at first tier. I also think the opening Commerce policy should boost in some way immediately. So here's a proposal:

⇒⇘_____________________⇗ Merchant Navy
⇗⇘Commerce ⇒ Mercantilism ⇒ Protectionism ⇒ Patent Law
⇒⇗________ ⇘ Trade Unions ⇗

Commerce
+25% in Capital.
-25% Purchase cost for tiles.

Mercantilism
-25% Purchase cost for units and buildings.

Trade Unions
+1 Movement for civilian units.
-25% Maintenance for Roads and Railroads.

Protectionism
+1 Happiness per luxury.

Merchant Navy
+1 Movement and +1 Sight for naval units.
+2 Production in coastal cities. (was 3)

Patent Law
+1 on Villages, Fishing Boats, and Customs Houses.

This would be more like it. I'm playing with Arabia right now, aiming for a diplomatic victory from the start, and had just concluded that Rationalism was still more valuable to me than Commerce (for as early a win as possible). The lure of additional gold would have tempted me to try Commerce.

 

[Txurce]

I just finished a game with Arabia, where I had a great time playing defense vs the Aztecs on desert tiles. That the Arabs view desert hills as flat terrain is a big boost. Of course the major changes regarded happiness. I don't think I built more than one happiness building, but always had the gold to do what i needed (including ultimately win a diplo victory with no challengers). The huge happiness surplus felt like it was too much, and then I thought: no, the Arabs now just seem fun and strong. So I would say mission accomplished here.

Getting back to the Commerce tree, the question might be, why would you want to go there no matter what it offers instead of Patronage (or later instead of Rationalism or Freedom). In retrospect it's probably overkill for Arabia, but may make more sense for a warmonger who could skip Patronage in order to finance his wars.

 

[Thalassicus]

Just as an aesthetic thing I want to ensure policies come in a historical order, which is why I avoided putting trade unions earlier. If we rename them it's not a problem though, so how about:

Commerce
+25% in Capital.
-25% Purchase cost for tiles.

Mercantilism
-25% Purchase cost for units and buildings.

Protectionism
+1 Movement for civilian units.
-50% Maintenance for Roads and Railroads.

Monopolies
+1 Happiness per luxury.

Merchant Navy
+1 Movement and +1 Sight for naval units.
+2 Production in coastal cities. (was 3)

Patent Law
+1 on Villages
+2 Fishing Boats and Customs Houses.
(There's a lower improvement-to-tile ratio in water than land, which is why boats get a bigger bonus. Customs houses get a bigger bonus as a buff to Merchants and GM's.)


Since gold is production in Civ 5, with just two policies the tree can give a 50-75% production boost in all cities in the Medieval era, depending on circumstances. Villages are 1 on regular tiles, 2 with rivers and 3 with rivers+techs. So on average let's pick the middle value. Patent Law's 2 -> 3 gold is a 50% increase. Villages can't be on every tile so it's probably more of a 25% increase for the economy's total income. 125% income at 75% cost = 167% production rate.


Do you feel any of these are an issue:

• Building vs purchasing balance - does the game favor one too much?
• Is it too easy to get units and buildings... with Commerce do we run out of stuff to do?
• Is this Commerce bonus of 50-70% (depending on circumstances) not big enough?
• Something else?

 

[Txurce]

Well, since gold is production in Civ 5, with just two policies the tree can basically give a +65% production boost in all cities in the Medieval era.

Villages are 1 on regular tiles, 2 with rivers and 3 with rivers+techs. So on average let's pick the middle value. Patent Law's 2 -> 3 gold is a 50% increase. Villages can't be on every tile so it's probably more of a 25% increase. 125% income at 75% cost = 167% production rate. That's rather big for something so early in the game.

If it's too easy to get units and buildings in the basic game, and with Commerce we run out of stuff to do, that's an issue we can deal with. Fundamentally though the tree does offer a huge increase in production.

I wouldn't argue with any of this, although I'd be out of the Middle Ages by the time I reaped those benefits. I'm just noting that you choose Commerce instead of something else - Patronage, maybe Rationalism or Freedom - and that this seems to benefit the warmonger more than the builder (although someone other than Arabia could go for a diplomatic victory with Commerce and Patronage, I guess, letting science grow from buildings).

What do you think is the ideal path for a fast diplo win? As Arabia, my estimate would be Scholasticism and the left hand side of the Rationalism tree, timed for Ecology and Globalization along with a stored GE. A different civ may need more gold, though.

 

[Seek]

I think the village buff would be most useful for large (likely puppet) empires. If I'm playing a builder game, whereof actually get to the end of the tree at a reasonable time, I generally have very few villages. (When I got Patants in my 3-city empire last night my gpt rose by about 5) Moreover, the 25% for the cap is really quite small but could help if someone's lagging economically - which the tile purchase bonus does nothing for - or help finance new building maintenance costs. So I don't think there's much to worry about here (in the above proposal) regarding a massive influx of gold in the medieval era. I think flavor-wise the layout above is a little more satisfying as well.

EDIT: Somewhat ninja'd by Txurce

 

[Thalassicus]

One thing to remember about the -25% tile purchase cost is it's got crazy synergy for Washington and Catherine. With Angkor Wat they can reach -90% and -75% purchase costs (respectively), basically getting any territory they want for nearly no gold.

 

[Txurce]

One thing to remember about the -25% tile purchase cost is it's got crazy synergy for Washington and Catherine. With Angkor Wat, both of them can reach -90% purchase costs, basically getting any territory they want for nearly no gold.

Don't tempt me to play America again. I still have to fail to capture some barbs for you.

 

[Stalker0]

Villages would have to be 2 gold before I even consider building them, and that's on nonriver tiles. I'll still take 2 food over 2 gold.

So with patent law, villages to me would become buildable, but the effects would take time to kick in as I start building villages. With 3 gold from economics and commerce, now we are starting to talk about some real money.

 

[Thalassicus]

3 1 with Free Thought.

I do want to improve the value of villages, I think Firaxis' nerf to villages while buffing mines/lumbermills skewed balance too much. I preferred the method in my mod where I only buffed mines/lumbermills without a village nerf. Still, I do want to stay close to vanilla and try and work with their own ideas, so I'm seeking ways to buff villages. I think one way might be to remove the free +2 Markets give. I've also been struggling for months to identify a way to nerf rivers. Giving out so much free gold is the reason villages aren't very important, we can do fine with just what we get from terrain and buildings.

 

[Seek]

Well bear in mind that gold is inherently less valuable in TBC due to the limited uses for it - basically only rush-buying if playing with CSD. So even if gold were to be more scarce, it often wouldn't make much difference. See MadDjinn's Siam LP (vanilla) where he runs a deficit economy for much of the game and still manages to pick up CSs and RAs - if he were playing TBC/CSD, he'd likely just keep enough income to prevent the science hit. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the availability of gold doesn't seem to have a lot of impact one way or another - in principal I agree with the idea that it should be on par with production, but I think in reality production will always be king. If Commerce opener gives a bit more gold, I don't think that the significance will be that large.

(Sorry for rambling, I'm really tired.)