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Policy cost increases per city

Discussion in 'Strategy Forum' started by Thalassicus, Apr 19, 2011.

  1. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    To put this another way...

    • Peaceful empires are equally capable of a cultural victory regardless of size.
    • Warlike empires are less capable of cultural victories than peaceful ones.

    This was the statement that's incorrect:

    I gave the reason in my original reply to this statement, and will try and explain it better:

    When we have a high per-player culture income, new cities have a greater responsibility for increasing our total income.

    • +10:c5culture: when we have 100:c5culture: in total is a 10% increase.
    • +10:c5culture: with 500:c5culture: in total is a 2% increase.
    It's why adding cities does not speed up policy generation for a culture victory game, even under the best possible circumstances. Each city adds a small, fixed amount of culture and cannot adequately offset its cost against the large sources of per-player culture income. Tall empires gain culture faster, and wide empires offset this with higher science that unlocks new culture sources sooner.

    If we can't do something in the best possible situation, then we never can do it. Things can't get better under worse circumstances. :)

    Spoiler :

    You're using data from conquest victories to make a conclusion about cultural victories. It's important to use the right data set. :)

    The data is conquest-victory specific because it omits per-player culture from sources like cultural citystates, landmarks, world wonders, and national wonders. I haven't played enough culture games to know for sure, but I doubt a culture game could be better by avoiding sources of culture.
     
  2. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    My own experience confirms this. Does anyone have specific in-game examples that contradict it?
     
  3. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Hoping that this is the right thread for this dialogue:

    If I build a monument and a temple in each city I acquire, my mid-game empire of 12 cities has been able to maintain a 9-turns-per-SP rate. It is not going down with each new city. And unless something has changed to cripple the cultural output of tall empires, my last culture game pre-patch had a rate of as low as 3-turns-per-policy.
     
  4. SlightlyMad

    SlightlyMad Prince

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    So your own experience contradicts your own experience, or am I misreading something here?

    edit: actually, I think I get it and see the fundamental misunderstanding here. It sounds like we all agree that adding cities does almost nothing to slow down policy generation, but merely works to balance itself out so as not to increase the SP rate.
     
  5. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    You're not being clear regarding your question - that's for sure!
     
  6. SlightlyMad

    SlightlyMad Prince

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    Sorry, I just edited my post because I think I understand the disconnect now. So while it's certainly possible for your empire to be in a state such that adding additional cities will increase the SP rate, Thal's argument is that doesn't really matter because if you're going for a cultural victory you'll have enough per-civ (as opposed to per-city) culture that you'll never be in that state.

    Additionally, the point is to try to balance it such that an additional city is possible to break-even with that generation, even though it won't hurt. A fair amount of effort (many building purchases) will be required to get the city to that point though, which hopefully balances out with the other benefits you'd receive from the additional city.

    So the ultimate point is that if you want to go for a cultural victory, it's reachable after more or less the same number of turns in either a tall or wide empire, assuming you always employ an optimal strategy (which is presumably more difficult in a wide empire but still entirely possible).
     
  7. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Pretty much, yes. Adding cities without adding culture buildings will increase your culture rate - but it's possible to win a cultural victory with a wide empire, if you invest sufficiently in cultural buildings, SP's and CS. But based on my pre-patch experience, a tall empire can still outperform a wide one in practice.
     
  8. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Yep. Basically my goal is a sweet spot where people can pursue a culture victory with wide or tall empires, just in different ways. The wide empire researches faster, while the tall empire gets policies more easily.

    I'd like to emphasize again this only applies to peaceful empires. Even with the old spoils effect of culture from city capture, I've always felt a peaceful game is stronger for culture victories than militaristic games. Just being at war with someone cuts out 10-20%:c5science: from a potential research agreement. Warfare also sours diplomatic opinions from leaders, which makes it even harder to get those agreements. The discussion between Stalker0 and I at the start of the thread is some anecdotal evidence to support this.
     
  9. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I've updated the original post with the latest information about how policy costs work.
     
  10. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    @OP: the fact that there's 3 archetypes and 2 of those need happiness could be improved imho. it would be great if the mod could diversify more between Conqueror Tall and Conqueror Wide playstyles, and between those and Peaceful Wide :)
     
  11. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    That's a reasonable suggestion, and I'll keep it in mind when considering game design in the weeks ahead. :)
     
  12. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    nice! you could actually even have a 6 archetype system by adding OCC and ICS to the two extremes ;)
     

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