Poll: Included maps

Which maps are worth keeping/updating first? (you can select more than one)


  • Total voters
    20

Xyth

History Rewritten
Joined
Jul 14, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Aotearoa
The maps in History Rewritten have not yet been updated for the new resources introduced in 0.9.3 and 0.9.5, and there are likely to be some terrain changes coming in 0.9.5 as well. I don't yet know when I will have time to update these maps but in order to make it a much easier task to keep them updated I'm thinking of pruning or replacing several of them.

Please let me know which of the included maps you find to be the best quality and the most fun to play on. Alternatively, if you know of a better map to include, please post a link to it in this thread. I can't promise to begin work on any these any time soon but it would be good to know what to prioritise when the time eventually comes.

Also, if someone wanted to volunteer to update/add one or more maps I would be very grateful. Mapmaking is not an area of expertise or particular interest for me.
 
My favourite maps are, in order:
  • Western Europe 38×48: lush map, close quarters, early action
  • Mediterranean 120×40: wide map, great leader variety, epic feel
  • Middle East 100×58: cradle of civilization
They are all reasonably well-balanced and I would love to see one or more updated.

Now for some specific suggestions on improving map quality:

Map Size: When designing maps, the given map size (Tiny, Small, Standard, Large, Huge) is completely independent of the chosen tile dimensions. But it has a huge impact on gameplay. For example, Mediterranean 52×32 is classified as Tiny: players can only draft one unit per turn but earn ridiculous yields on corporations, to the tune of +1 food/Sid Sushi resource. Meanwhile, Mediterranean 61×45, which is only slightly larger, is classified as Huge: thus, players can draft five units per turn, but corporations are nearly worthless, at only +0.25 food/Sid Sushi resource. I won't even mention the disparity in research rates between the two maps. Simply put, all the maps in History Rewritten need to be reassigned map sizes that better correspond to their actual dimensions.

Monotonous Landscape: If you are looking for maps to cut, I would suggest Eurasia 250×80, North Africa 93×46, and East Asia 55×55, in that order. All of these maps suffer, in varying degrees, from monotonous landscapes that result in boring gameplay and balance issues. Eurasia is especially to blame: its North America is covered in Deer-Grassland/Forest; its South America is entirely Grassland/Jungle with off-shore seafood; Southeast Asia is also a mass of Jungle; and the northern Eurasian landmass, from Siberia to the Ural Mountains, is one endless forest. That's just not very interesting to play. Meanwhile, an entire half of the North Africa map is covered in desert: the large Arabian desert set next to the even larger Sahara desert. This creates a sharp imbalance between the well-connected European and Mediterranean civilizations, and the isolated West Asian and African civilizations. Similarly, the East Asia map features a dozen South Asian and Southeast Asian civilizations squeezed into the jungle belt while the Chinese, the Kushans, and the Mongols get free rein over the forests and floodplains in the north. It is unfortunate that these maps are among the few without a European focus; but that's the way it is.

New Civilizations: Europe 90×90 could use a Polish start location. Eastern Europe is pretty empty compared to crowded Western Europe. I would also add the Kushans north of the Caspian Sea; it might not make geographic sense, but it would help balance. That entire region is otherwise gobbled up by monster Mongol or Russian empire. (We really could use a Balkan civilization like the Bulgars.) Meanwhile, Anatolia is too crowded; I would remove Persia (they don't belong anyway) and retain Byzantium and Turkestan. Separately, Middle East 120×40 might benefit from another African civilization, either Swahili or Mande. The map does not extend quite far enough to include their respective homelands, but there is a lot of unoccupied space in central Africa, especially with Ethiopia starting on the shores of the Red Sea.
 
When 0.9.5 comes out I will work on an Earth Map, dunno whether to fix one or make my own
 
When designing maps, the given map size (Tiny, Small, Standard, Large, Huge) is completely independent of the chosen tile dimensions. But it has a huge impact on gameplay.[…]
Always learning something new:). (If I had just known before…:rolleyes:) [Edit: No irony here, I just didn't know!]

[…]This creates a sharp imbalance between the well-connected European and Mediterranean civilizations, and the isolated West Asian and African civilizations. Similarly, the East Asia map features a dozen South Asian and Southeast Asian civilizations squeezed into the jungle belt while the Chinese, the Kushans, and the Mongols get free rein over the forests and floodplains in the north. It is unfortunate that these maps are among the few without a European focus; but that's the way it is.
That's naturally the way it is on real earth maps, but there you got a point asking for balance and improved gameplay. For real earth maps bring their share of simulation, immersion in history and role playing already with them. That's no purpose in itself; such maps need some extra work to contribute to an interesting game experience. We know, how rewarding BTS treats extended land ownership, green "good land" and floodplains. China, India and Russia, whoever is settled there, will always dominate, which makes games on real earth maps, even if you're much enjoying historical accuracy and replaying history, a bit too much predictable.

But I'm not saying that to pay a little tribute to the gameplay-balance-what-if litany, that I criticized here earlier (if it's nothing but a parroted doctrine). It's just necessary to do something about an oversized green Siberia – and generally nudge the real world maps a little more in the fun direction.

It's been a while, that I played a game on Jabarto's Eurasian map, but I recall I lost to China… That much for historical realism. And I do remember, the resources are distributed in a monotonous way. But since HR's new ressources have to be added anyway, this could be dealt with in one go.

Europe 90×90 could use a Polish start location. Eastern Europe is pretty empty compared to crowded Western Europe. I would also add the Kushans north of the Caspian Sea; it might not make geographic sense, but it would help balance. That entire region is otherwise gobbled up by monster Mongol or Russian empire. (We really could use a Balkan civilization like the Bulgars.)

At least Poland, and I'd add Ukraine as a pure scenario Civ. I don't know if that's concurring with Xyth's general policy to just clone a fake Civ from an existing, that would have "wrong" unique units and buildings. If so, the leader name could be Sviatoslav. He would be borrowing his face from Casimir.

Rather than displacing the Kushans, one could just worsen Eurasia, make it more arid and inhospitable. Other mods make use of Barb spawning to balance superabundant fertile areas (Realism Invictus, not the other one).

I'm not quite sure, if this map has the Celts starting in the Burgundian area. Not really needed there, because France will probably kill them sooner or later anyway.

Xyth, you might as well forget about the 90x90 map. As I mentioned earlier, the rivers would need a complete overhaul. They're a mess. And since you're not much getting out of map design, you could just as well pick a different Europe map. The one, I adapted for my 0.9.3 HR game, was originally created by PW90 in 2007. Nothing special really, but not bad. I can't remember, if I had to remove anything, before I loaded it from HR. So if you want to take a look, but are unable to open it, I'm going to send or post my adapted version.

More importantly, it would be good to have a dedicated world map, that does justice to the specificity of HR, that means, to shifting the focus away from Europe. civ_king, if you like, let us participate in your plans.
 
It to me, seems very important to have both the new world map and the Warlords world map because of size. Smaller size= less civilizations= less units= less lag. Also, the Mediterranean map is practically the known world of ancient times. I say that these three are important.
 
I enjoy playing on Huge maps or larger, I prefer realistic world maps, with the realistic starting locations. As to imbalance inherent in a realistic world maps, I believe that's the point. Without economic, military and cultural imbalance there wouldn't be conflict or a need to power balance with what you have....I enjoy the Eurasia map, it has natural chokepoints and limits sea travel in an interesting way. I'd prefer a full earth map though.
 
I enjoy playing on Huge maps or larger, I prefer realistic world maps, with the realistic starting locations. As to imbalance inherent in a realistic world maps, I believe that's the point. Without economic, military and cultural imbalance there wouldn't be conflict or a need to power balance with what you have....I enjoy the Eurasia map, it has natural chokepoints and limits sea travel in an interesting way. I'd prefer a full earth map though.
So go with a super detailed map of the largest size? Enlarged Europe or no?
 
So go with a super detailed map of the largest size? Enlarged Europe or no?

Yes a very detailed map of the largest available size would be ideal. Although I'm running into memory allocation trouble with the existing map at around 750AD.... not sure if this is due to map size or more so the number of civs and units.

I like the scale of the existing Eurasia map seems to give a good scope to the landmasses, has good voids for barbarian production. Resource distribution seems good and causes nice land grab and resource grab based conflicts.

So yeah...wish I could do maps... need to learn that next I suppose:p
 
I'd like a map of just the Americas. There is Europe, Eurasia, and the Mediterranean in maps, but not even a simple North America. We could go with a map of the Americas, since there are six(right?) civilizations spread around the Americas.
 
I'd like a map of just the Americas. There is Europe, Eurasia, and the Mediterranean in maps, but not even a simple North America. We could go with a map of the Americas, since there are six(right?) civilizations spread around the Americas.

I'd second this, a detailed map of the Americas would be fun to have especially for certain scenarios.
 
The Premade Maps forum is the place to look. If you find a good map of the Americas there I'm willing to include it in 0.9.5, though it probably won't be updated with the new resources and such until later.
 
Yes a very detailed map of the largest available size would be ideal. Although I'm running into memory allocation trouble with the existing map at around 750AD.... not sure if this is due to map size or more so the number of civs and units.

I like the scale of the existing Eurasia map seems to give a good scope to the landmasses, has good voids for barbarian production. Resource distribution seems good and causes nice land grab and resource grab based conflicts.

So yeah...wish I could do maps... need to learn that next I suppose:p

the MAFs are caused by both, more civs mean more calculations, more space mean each civ needs to do more calculations. Killing for civs helps..

Yes, I'm going to go for a fantastically detailed map with proper resource placement, however should I place resources like cows and horses in the New World or no?
 
the MAFs are caused by both, more civs mean more calculations, more space mean each civ needs to do more calculations. Killing for civs helps..

Yep. Reducing number of civs and/or mapsize will reduce/eliminate MAFs. You can also try unpacking some of the FPKs. See the Troubleshooting thread for details.

Yes, I'm going to go for a fantastically detailed map with proper resource placement, however should I place resources like cows and horses in the New World or no?[/QUOTE]

I'd say no. I assume that people playing real world maps are more interested in accuracy than balance, but I could be wrong. What size map are you thinking?
 
Some responses:

It to me, seems very important to have both the new world map and the Warlords world map because of size. Smaller size= less civilizations= less units= less lag. Also, the Mediterranean map is practically the known world of ancient times. I say that these three are important.

I agree. When choosing which maps to update first, we should include at least one small map, to suit player taste and computer capacity.

As to imbalance inherent in a realistic world maps, I believe that's the point. Without economic, military and cultural imbalance there wouldn't be conflict or a need to power balance with what you have....I enjoy the Eurasia map, it has natural chokepoints and limits sea travel in an interesting way. I'd prefer a full earth map though.

Well, I'm more concerned with monotonous terrain than map balance as such. Balance issues can always be addressed by adjusting the difficulty level. (In the BtS 1000 AD scenario, the Chinese player is set to Emperor difficulty while the various leaders in crowded Western Europe are all Chieftains.) However, there's nothing you can do about a massive 80 by 30 tile Siberian grassland-forest with only a few scattered Deer; not only will the Russian, Mongolian, and Kushan empires gobble it all up, but the gameplay will be very boring and repetitive.
As Keinpferd says, we need to nudge the real world maps a little more in the fun direction.

Yes, I'm going to go for a fantastically detailed map with proper resource placement, however should I place resources like cows and horses in the New World or no?
I'd say no. I assume that people playing real world maps are more interested in accuracy than balance, but I could be wrong. What size map are you thinking?

Hmm. It's not just a matter of balance. Removing Horses from the New World leaves Sioux unable to build their unique unit, the Mounted Brave. It's not an easy call either way.
 
Resurrecting this thread also as getting these maps replaced/improved/updated is a major goal of 1.18. I've left these way too long and while I don't particularly enjoy playing or modding real world maps I know that many users of HR do. So first of all, the fates of the current map selection:


• Middle East 45x35
• Middle East 100x58​

These maps will be retained and updated..


• Earth 100x56
• Earth 124x68​

I have found more recent versions of these maps and I will replace the old versions before updating them.


• Europe 90x90
• Eurasia 250x80
• Gaul 25x30
• North Africa 93x46
• Western Europe 38x48​

Already removed or are going to be removed. These maps are either unpopular or have too many problems to make them worth fixing. Some of these will be replaced by better maps of their region.


• Mediterranean 52x32
• Mediterranean 61x45
• Mediterranean 120x40
• Eastern Asia 55x55​

No decision made on these maps yet. I've found another Europe/Mediterranean map that is very good quality so at least one of these will be replaced by that. I'll probably end up keeping two Mediterranean maps only, at two different sizes.


I'll be renaming all the maps in 1.18 to use their world size equivalent instead of detailing their dimensions, and I'll also be adding a description to each listing all the civs that are compatible with the map. I have a couple new maps that I'll definitely be adding:

• Europe (Standard)
• Africa (Large)​


And a couple of new maps that I might add:

• Earth (Massive)
• Americas (Massive)​

The massive Earth map is part of another mod, I'm hoping I can fix it to work with HR. It's the only one I've found that is big without being constant-MAF-and-hour-long-turn-times big. It's 152x96 or 14592 tiles, which is somewhere in between HR's Giant and Massive capsizes. There are some beautiful Earth maps out there but most of them are well over 20,000 tiles - memory meltdown territory for HR or any mod that has even a modest amount of new art.

The Americas map is great but it's massive. Literally: 115x150. That's actually larger than HR's Massive size by about 1200 tiles. I know that some people simply adore large maps but this is too big, especially when HR only has 8 civs in the Americas (10 if Brazil and the Mississipians get added). Though I suppose you could add some of the European civs to make a Colonization-style scenario. What I might do though, is cut out South America completely (if I can figure out how). This would only cut the Inca (and Brazil if they get added), but drastically reduce the size of the map, making it more suitable for both performance and the number of civs.

There are of course other regions of the world I'd like to see added but it will depend on what I can find and, how long each map takes to update with all the new terrains and resources, and, of course, how bored of working on maps I become. Shall see.
 
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