pineappledan
Deity
In this Balance Discussion thread, we discussed how Order's Guerilla Warfare tenet might be improved
This discussion was brought about by the recent Germany change which gave Germany the Landsknecht UU instead of the Panzer, meaning the Panzer icon & 3D model is free to be used somewhere else.
Guerrilla Warfare
+15% attack bonus and +50% Experience for Military Units in friendly territory. Can build Guerrilla Fighters
Guerrilla Fighter (infantry replacement)
unlocked at combined arms
1200
62 CS (+2 CS from infantry)
2moves
DFPs
Guerrilla (+50% vs wounded, ZOC, ignores terrain costs, 10HP in friendly lands, +20% flanking)
Criticism of the tenet itsel:
Patriotic War
Land units gain +20%Strength when in or adjacent to a City. When you Conquer a City, all units are healed. Can build T-34s
T-34 (Tank)
Unlocked at Combined Arms
1600 (down from 1800)
requires Oil
82CS (up from 75)
5 (6 with Mobility)
No Defensive Terrain Bonuses
Can Move After Attacking
Armor Plating I
Armor Plating II
Mobility
Note: the base tank icon/model is a T-34. The Panzer icon/model will become the base tank, while the current base tank art is used for the unique ideology unit.
This discussion was brought about by the recent Germany change which gave Germany the Landsknecht UU instead of the Panzer, meaning the Panzer icon & 3D model is free to be used somewhere else.
Spoiler Existing Guerilla Warfare Tenet :
Guerrilla Warfare
+15% attack bonus and +50% Experience for Military Units in friendly territory. Can build Guerrilla Fighters
Spoiler “Guerrilla fighter” :
Guerrilla Fighter (infantry replacement)
unlocked at combined arms
1200
62 CS (+2 CS from infantry)
2moves
DFPs
Guerrilla (+50% vs wounded, ZOC, ignores terrain costs, 10HP in friendly lands, +20% flanking)
Spoiler Criticisms :
Criticism of the tenet itsel:
- friendly lands bonus is bland. There is also a civ trait (Shoshone) and a wonder (Himeji) that give this same bonus. Removing it from Order would make the other two feel more unique.
- Order is supposed to be an ideology that helps with conquest. This tenet is the only combat bonus in the entire Order tree to help you with that, yet it's purely defensive, and much weaker than any of Autocracy's several combat tenets. The only offensive tool that Order currently has is the Guerilla UU; everything else is a bonus that helps with infrastructure and consolidating conquered cities (eg. Iron curtain, People's Army).
- The XP in friendly lands is a direct downgrade from Autocracy’s elite forces, which gives the same bonus, but not locked with territory. Too similar and invites an unflattering comparison
- Perhaps the biggest problem with late-game combat is this: How do you conquer fast enough and keep momentum so you can beat CVs, SVs, and DiploVs? Autocracy does this by unlocking Airports in all cities, allowing you to teleport your armies anywhere in your empire for free, usually before you have even researched Radar. Order has no similar ability to make fighting faster.
- Guerrillas are a bit too good, and does everything. Basically the guerrilla fighter promotion gives the guerrilla every basic bonus available to the scout and armor units, but not available to Gun units. They are all very common bonuses, Nothing about it is unique or special, but it’s everything and the kitchen sink. Combined with the ability to upgrade a lot of melee UUs, they can be really dangerous.
- Guerillas are too general of a concept, much less specific than Autocracy's Zero or Freedom's B-17. The other two ideology units have precise makes & models that narrow down the years and nationality of the unit.
- Guerilla warfare is not a uniquely socialist/communist thing. There have been Guerilla wars fought by communists (eg. Chinese Civil War, Vietnam, Cuban Revolution, Columbian FARC), but there are also tons of examples of Guerillas with different ideologies (eg. Mujahideen, Paraguayan War), or only weak ties to socialism (eg. Tamil Tigers)
- Guerillas are not thematically appropriate as a mainline infantry replacement. In general, if you are fighting a guerilla war, it is because all your real infantry are captured or dead, or are actively fighting you. Guerilla warfare is defined by its asymmetry, so it just doesn't make sense. Guerillas would make way more sense as scout-line UUs.
- Guerillas are the only of the 3 ideology units that doesn't replace a base unit with a Strategic resource requirement. At 1300, Guerillas are also slightly cheaper than Fighters (1400) or Bombers (1500), which also have Air Slot limits per city on top of their SR requirement. This makes Guerillas extremely spammable and hurts late game army composition, because Order has this 1 unit type that is stronger, more flexible, and cheaper than any other option, and has no production constraints other than your total war supply.
- Guerrillas are stacked with another policy-unlocked unique unit: Authority’s Mercenary, which is weaker. Having 2 unique policy units stacked on each other feels bad, because 1 of them may as well not exist. Authority/Autocracy players functionally get 2 unique units while Authority/Order players only get 1.
Spoiler “New Tenet Proposal” :
Patriotic War
Land units gain +20%Strength when in or adjacent to a City. When you Conquer a City, all units are healed. Can build T-34s
Spoiler “T-34” :
T-34 (Tank)
Unlocked at Combined Arms
1600 (down from 1800)
requires Oil
82CS (up from 75)
5 (6 with Mobility)
No Defensive Terrain Bonuses
Can Move After Attacking
Armor Plating I
Armor Plating II
Mobility
Note: the base tank icon/model is a T-34. The Panzer icon/model will become the base tank, while the current base tank art is used for the unique ideology unit.
Spoiler How these changes improve the existing tenet :
- Changing the friendly lands bonus to a city adjacency bonus gives Order an offensive tool outside of the UU.
- Order now has a unique incentive for unit positioning and strategy. Now you are incentivized to fight close to cities and rush into position fast. You can still turtle, but now it is about city sieges, rather than your border blob.
- The city adjacency bonus is only used on 1 other unit in the game: The Chinese Chu Ko Nu. Here is the only time melee units can use this city adjacency bonus, giving it more of an offensive feel, and unstacks the tenet from Shoshone and Himeji.
- Takes out Order's XP bonus so that it is not just a worse Elite Forces anymore.
- Addresses Order's issue with conquest speed by eliminating healing downtime between city siege pushes. This helps address the time crunch concern that late-game combat needs to address in a different way from Autocracy.
- The T-34 is more specific, with make, model, years of service, and a nationality. A T-34 is also strongly associated with communism.
- This is opinion, but T-34s are just way cooler and more sensible than whatever the Guerilla is supposed to be. It was the single most influential and successful tank design of WWII, and it widely regarded as an excellent tank. Guerillas aren't cool. If you are fighting a guerilla war, that means you have already lost some very important strategic battles, and are hanging by a thread. That's uncool.
- T-34s are more consistent with the B-17 and Zero, having a strategic resource requirement, and leaving room for other unit types in your army composition.
- Authority Mercenaries aren't stacked with order's UU anymore
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