Germany Changes Poll

Thoughts on these German proposed changes

  • I like the new Realpolitik proposal

    Votes: 68 66.7%
  • I dislike the new Realpolitik proposal, and don't want Germany's UA to change

    Votes: 3 2.9%
  • I dislike the new Realpolitik proposal, but I agree that Germany's UA should change

    Votes: 23 22.5%
  • I like the new Landsknecht proposal

    Votes: 59 57.8%
  • I dislike the new Landsknecht proposal; I want to keep the Panzer

    Votes: 24 23.5%
  • I dislike the new Landsknecht proposal, but I don't like the Panzer either

    Votes: 9 8.8%

  • Total voters
    102

Sailor Clueless

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
16
@Sailor Clueless If you download my 3rd and 4th Unique Components for Vox Populi mod (link in my signature below), Germany gets a second unique unit there. It is a unique warrior, so you get a free 1 at the start, and it has a 50% chance to convert barbarian units it kills.

50%? - That might be a little low... Does it still apply to captured barbarian units? - Or is it possible to produce additional unique warriors without a city in your mod?
 

pineappledan

Deity
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
7,699
Location
Alberta, Canada
The conversion is specific to the UU, barbarians can’t convert other barbarians.
 

Sailor Clueless

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
16
@pineappledan The "No City Challenge" is contingent on being able to use the unit(s) you start with to convert barbarian units and use those converted units to convert additional units so that you can accumulate an army large enough, and before too much scientific progression has transpired, to conquer a city. It sounds like Vox Populi, with or without the 3rd 4th components, is not conducive to the No City Challenge at this time. Please consider this my request to return Germany to its former glory.
 

pineappledan

Deity
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
7,699
Location
Alberta, Canada
You should probably just add it back into your own games yourself. VP didn’t delete that old Germany ability, it just turns it off.

if you want that old ability back, you can go into the leader balance changes file and set it back on there. But for most other players, there isn’t much interest in returning Germany to a UA bonus that ceases to do anything past classical.
 

Sailor Clueless

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
16
You should probably just add it back into your own games yourself. VP didn’t delete that old Germany ability, it just turns it off.

if you want that old ability back, you can go into the leader balance changes file and set it back on there. But for most other players, there isn’t much interest in returning Germany to a UA bonus that ceases to do anything past classical.

Is there no way to combine the UA's?
 

pineappledan

Deity
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
7,699
Location
Alberta, Canada
Is there no way to combine the UA's?
you can make the UA anything you want, mixing and matching any abilities past or present. you can add barb conversion to any other civ too. Or all of them.

But if you’re pushing to revert VP Germany back to its vanilla kit, and have barbarian conversion be Vox Populi’s out-of-the-box kit for Germany, no I don’t think so. I for one certainly don’t want that. Germany wouldn’t have been changed in the first place if the majority of people liked Germany’s vanilla kit. The no city challenge is still there for the people who want to do it, but it’s best left as a challenge mode IMO
 

Sailor Clueless

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
16
you can make the UA anything you want, mixing and matching any abilities past or present. you can add barb conversion to any other civ too. Or all of them.

But if you’re pushing to revert VP Germany back to its vanilla kit, and have barbarian conversion be Vox Populi’s out-of-the-box kit for Germany, no I don’t think so. I for one certainly don’t want that. Germany wouldn’t have been changed in the first place if the majority of people liked Germany’s vanilla kit. The no city challenge is still there for the people who want to do it, but it’s best left as a challenge mode IMO

Okay, that sounds good. If I can resurrect the barbarian conversion and have it in conjunction with whatever the VP UA ends up being, then that will suffice. I don't know how to make that sort of change, so I guess I'll have to ask around for assistance. It's a base game feature, so I would assume I need to delete something introduced by VP, but I could be wrong...
 

pineappledan

Deity
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
7,699
Location
Alberta, Canada
Just go to :
MODS/(2) Community Balance changes/Balance Changes/Leaders/Vanilla/VanillaLeaderChanges.sql

change line 434:

UPDATE Traits
SET LandBarbarianConversionPercent = '0’
WHERE Type = 'TRAIT_CONVERTS_LAND_BARBARIANS' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_LEADERS' AND Value= 1 );

just set that 0 to whatever percent you want

While you’re there you can noodle around with any of the other German unique abilities, which are next to that
 

Sailor Clueless

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
16
@pineappledan Oh hey, that's great! Thank you for the insight. I should have known I was talking to an adept.

Btw, if you see Nutty, can you pass along my regards? He helped me out tremendously a while back and I haven't forgotten it. You guys are the greatest.
 

SeaPanther

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 2, 2017
Messages
12
Realpolitik: +3 :c5science: Science per Friendly City-State and +3 :c5culture: Culture per Allied City-State, scaling with Era. Gain an embassy and open borders with civs containing your diplomat.

Man alive, this seems like a fun clause for the player! I know I could have made use of this many, many times, in different ways across nearly all my games. I don't know if it's quintessentially German, but it's a unique change.

But this thread's premise is a bit more concerned about AI Germany, than a player Germany; playing VP Germany has always been serviceable in my experience. AI Germany tends to be a wallflower, but has it's moments if it wins the snowball roulette, during which it's a sight to behold- due to the Hanse I'd say.

As for the Panzer, I'd keep it. It's an iconic unit, and the extra speed is the best part about it initially (something the any militant AI needs to excel, ala Songhai). Two eras later the stacking extra armour + never becoming obsolete, means that German Modern Armour is reliably top notch. I'd be loathe to see it gone.
 
Last edited:

KlHannibal2

Warlord
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
197
As for the Panzer, I'd keep it. It's an iconic unit, and the extra speed is the best part about it initially (something the any militant AI needs to excel, ala Songhai). Two eras later the stacking extra armour + never becoming obsolete, means that German Modern Armour is reliably top notch. I'd be loathe to see it gone.

Totally agree, would be a pity to see the Panzer gone.
 

ixias

Warlord
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
207
A little late to the party, but just wanted to chime in and say that I'm liking these suggestions for Germany!

Just reading through the proposed changes, I have a couple of questions/thoughts:
  • It sounds like there are a decent amount of people that want to keep the Panzer in base VP. Personally, I like the idea of the Landsknecht better, but what if you put that in the 3/4 UC instead of the Slaganz and left the Panzer? I agree that the Slaganz might be too strong with the new UA, but haven't tested anything yet so can't say for sure.
  • I'm sure this has been asked before, but why does the UA give 3:c5science: only when friends with a CS and 3:c5culture: only when allied? I'm assuming it would be too strong to keep the both the science yields and add the culture on top of it when you become allies, but why not split the yields? Why not have friends give 1 :c5science: and 1 :c5culture: for friends and 2 :c5science: and 2 :c5culture: for allies?
Keep up the great work!
 

pineappledan

Deity
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
7,699
Location
Alberta, Canada
There’s a multi vote poll that expands on what you would want for the German UA, if you haven’t already voted there.

I think the ulfhedinn unique unit probably is going away. For various reasons, I have been leaning more towards adding a stormtrooper Rifleman as the German 4UC unit, rather than moving the panzer there. It’s earlier, but just as iconic, and I think you can be truer to the real history of the unit with a stormtrooper.
 

pineappledan

Deity
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
7,699
Location
Alberta, Canada
I'm sure this has been asked before, but why does the UA give 3:c5science: only when friends with a CS and 3:c5culture: only when allied? I'm assuming it would be too strong to keep the both the science yields and add the culture on top of it when you become allies, but why not split the yields? Why not have friends give 1 :c5science: and 1 :c5culture: for friends and 2 :c5science: and 2 :c5culture: for allies?
allies already reward you more for being allied. You get more yields, and you get various other benefits like resources and votes. Having Germany just pile on even more yields as even more reward didn’t change anything about how you play them. The idea was to make Germany relatively more agnostic towards the friend/ally distinction, because at least he gets a decent bonus for either.
 

SeaPanther

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 2, 2017
Messages
12
I think the ulfhedinn unique unit probably is going away.

I found the Ulfhedinn an incredible game changer when a converted barbarian had the ability to embark. It's basically like playing Polynesia- grab a few barbs and go exploring at rates and lengths that would make the AI jealous. Germany becomes an ancient ruins civ with the ulf, which translates to several techs, pop, & religion.

Actually, with 3/4 UC Germany kinda shines at every point in the game in player hands: strong ancient era ---> religion boom with classical Teutonic Order ---> build city state alliances for yields ---> Hanse hammer explosion ---> early endgame unit to bolster any victory style. It's not overboard, but this civ pulls itself along.

AI on the other hand....
 
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,028
Location
Germany
allies already reward you more for being allied. You get more yields, and you get various other benefits like resources and votes. Having Germany just pile on even more yields as even more reward didn’t change anything about how you play them. The idea was to make Germany relatively more agnostic towards the friend/ally distinction, because at least he gets a decent bonus for either.
It isnt a bad idea to create a civ about CS friendship, but its simply terribly solved. To get the most out of your Hanse UB, you need as many trade routes to CS as possible, but trade routes to friendly CS give so low yields in comparison to all other options, so you want to ally the trade route target to get more yields. Another point is, what is a diplo civilization, which didnt want to ally CS and get vote for the world congress to win by a DV?

In my eyes, the major problem is the Hanse. The Link between a medieval trade organization, city-states and the industrial power of united Germany of modern times is absolutly irrational. It makes absolutly no sense.
If the production modifier isnt bound anymore to trade routes with CS, than you could play Germany as you want and simply use your production power to build emissaries and simply get friendly with all city states but otherpwise play towards any victory condition you want.
 

pineappledan

Deity
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
7,699
Location
Alberta, Canada
I found the Ulfhedinn an incredible game changer when a converted barbarian had the ability to embark. It's basically like playing Polynesia- grab a few barbs and go exploring at rates and lengths that would make the AI jealous. Germany becomes an ancient ruins civ with the ulf, which translates to several techs, pop, & religion.

Actually, with 3/4 UC Germany kinda shines at every point in the game in player hands: strong ancient era ---> religion boom with classical Teutonic Order ---> build city state alliances for yields ---> Hanse hammer explosion ---> early endgame unit to bolster any victory style. It's not overboard, but this civ pulls itself along.
It's not helpful to bring up the 4UC components for Germany, because The Ulfhedinn and Teutonic Order were chosen specifically to address Germany's early game deficiencies. 4UC is trying to "fix" Germany, but fixing Germany isn't necessary if base Germany ceases to be broken.

The Current Germany has a late-Medieval UB, a late Modern era UU, and 1/2 of its UA era-locked to the World Congress at Renaissance.
If the UU were changed to the Landsknecht -- a Medieval/Renaissance unit -- and with a UA with no abilities gated behind the World Congress or the Spy mechanics, like my personal favorite UA proposal, Blood and Iron (see below), there is much less need for the 4UC to emphasize early game.
UA: Blood and Iron
+3:c5culture: Culture in the :c5capital:Capital for each City-State Ally and +3:c5science:Science for each Friend, scaling with Era. Military units gifted to City-States generate 1 :c5influence:Influence for Germany each turn.
Indeed, now the shoe is on the other foot. With the two base components coming much sooner, and a UA that is fully unlocked at turn 1, now the most glaring deficiency in Germany is the lack of anything from post-unification Germany (besides Bismarck). 4UC can re-focus on adding back a late-game unit, since that would then be the biggest hole.
 
Last edited:

notaspambot

Warlord
Joined
Nov 1, 2020
Messages
197
I'd like to ask that if the UA is going to be pulled back for the early game, the Panzer should stay. Thematically, I'm iffy about having not one, but two of its core components being rooted in the HRE for a civ with a clear post-1871 aesthetic. I wouldn't mind a Panzer replacement necessarily, but preferrably something outside the Late Medieval-Early Renaissance period which the Hanse already covers.
 
Last edited:

GreekIrish

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
78
+1 influence per turn without stopping seems really strong doesn't it? Could put off Bronze and spam out a ton of warriors and gift them. Maybe it could decay.
 
Top Bottom