Germany Changes Poll

[KlHannibal2]

There’s lots of diplomatic civs that don’t get extra WC votes. Siam and Greece for instance. It’s weird that the only 2 civs in the game that get extra WC votes from their UAs also happen to be the 2 Germanic ones. That’s why I have been pushing for Germany to get some other bonus to diplomacy, like an alternative source of influence.

Looking for extra influence? Why not give Germany intrinsic influence from city state trade routes? Maybe a fixed 2 per turn. That can stack with statecraft and/or freedom. Or you can just use it without those policies and use way of the noble truth to secure alliances. It would make Germany's city state trade routes stronger and would give them an early way to secure alliances.

If combined with the statecraft bonus, it would give 7 influence per turn from trade routes (if you have at least 5 of them). Compared to the 5 other civs get, it does not sound OP.

At least it is more synergistic than the current extra votes and GA points.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Realpolitik: +3 Science per Friendly City-State and +3 Culture per Allied City-State, scaling with Era. Bonuses from Cultural Influence with a Civilization are 1 level higher if you have a Diplomat with them. +1Influence per turn with City-States for every unit you have Gifted them.

Is that a permanent bonus? It would work well with the Ulfhedinn converting more barbs than you can use otherwise.

 

[Stalker0]

Instead of an influence bonus per round, you could increase their minimum influence level. This would let Germany maintain friendships late game even when GDs normally knock you back down, helping to maintain Germany’s league of friends.

On the influence level, you would need to ensure it doesn’t apply for CV, else it’s horrifically broken. Getting to popular late game is pretty easy, so the ability to switch several civs from popular to influential would make them the dominant cV civ.

Or you could say “+1 culture level with civs below popular”, that’s another way to do it

 

[pineappledan]

you could increase their minimum influence level. This would let Germany maintain friendships late game even when GDs normally knock you back down, helping to maintain Germany’s league of friends.

I thought people hated resting influence bonuses. I thought people stripped them all out because no one enjoyed them?

On the influence level, you would need to ensure it doesn’t apply for CV, else it’s horrifically broken. Getting to popular late game is pretty easy, so the ability to switch several civs from popular to influential would make them the dominant cV civ.

For sure, it wouldn't count for victory purposes. But I would want people to be able to get the dominant modifiers if they were influential

Is that a permanent bonus? It would work well with the Ulfhedinn converting more barbs than you can use otherwise.

Semi-permanent; it would last as long as the unit is alive.

So its power would be strongest in the early game. However, we could make it so the amount of influence scales with the level of the unit, so it the ability scales with the XP of units (maybe 0.5 per level?).

That way, there's a strong reason to delay gifting units until Barracks, and there's a synergy with the Landsknecht, who gets full XP when purchased.

 

[AndreyK]

I think that +3 science per friend looks as strong as +3 culture per ally, but acquiring and keeping ally is much more difficult and should be rewarded more. If decrease science is not an option, then may be increase culture per ally to 4?

 

[Stalker0]

I thought people hated resting influence bonuses. I thought people stripped them all out because no one enjoyed them?
For sure, it wouldn't count for victory purposes. But I would want people to be able to get the dominant modifiers if they were influential
Semi-permanent; it would last as long as the unit is alive.

So its power would be strongest in the early game. However, we could make it so the amount of influence scales with the level of the unit, so it the ability scales with the XP of units (maybe 0.5 per level?).

That way, there's a strong reason to delay gifting units until Barracks, and there's a synergy with the Landsknecht, who gets full XP when purchased.

i think the issue is resting influence is so low that jr doesn’t actually do anything. But if it was strong enough that I could take a GD hit in the face and still have a friendship with a cs, thst would be something

 

[KlHannibal2]

So its power would be strongest in the early game. However, we could make it so the amount of influence scales with the level of the unit, so it the ability scales with the XP of units (maybe 0.5 per level?).

I like the mechanic to get influence from gifted units. Only issue I have is it would give a much greater boost with 3/4 UC than with base VP. The ulfhedinn gives many free units that you can gift. Without it, Germany needs to build more units for its own use, plus the units it would gift.

As the issue is base VP Germany, not with 3/4 UC, I would rather give them 2 influence per turn for city state trade routes. That would also make petra and colussus more interesting. Now you have to wait for hanses to get extra value from these wonders. With this proposal, they could right away help with city states.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

So its power would be strongest in the early game. However, we could make it so the amount of influence scales with the level of the unit, so it the ability scales with the XP of units (maybe 0.5 per level?).
That way, there's a strong reason to delay gifting units until Barracks, and there's a synergy with the Landsknecht, who gets full XP when purchased.

That gifting mechanic is still too powerful and exploitable.
Scaling with xp level sounds balancing, but in my eyes, it's the complete opposite, cause you didn't need to wait for barracks to gift higher units.
In the early phase it's so easy to bring your cheap warriors to lv 3 only by defending against barbarians, that you can gift your first warriors to several CS and defend with the next new warriors.
In this case, even 1 warrior would be enough to get befriended or allied with CS.
It would get even more ridiculous, if you simply spam scouts, let them promote to lvl 4 by some fights and then scouting, so you would get +2 influence per turn with several City states for the cost of some scouts.

 

[pineappledan]

Can scout line units be gifted? Minor civs can't train them; I don't think you can give them away.

Your suggestion of gaining influence by parking the units inside CS territory borders would be weaker than just tributing the city-state. I already have a unique frigate in 4UC that generates influence by sitting in CS territory, and we ended up setting it at +2 per turn, stacking per frigate. Anything less wasn't worth it.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Your suggestion of gaining influence by parking the units inside CS territory borders would be weaker than just tributing the city-state. I already have a unique frigate in 4UC that generates influence by sitting in CS territory, and we ended up setting it at +2 per turn, stacking per frigate. Anything less wasn't worth it.

My idea changed from "placing in territory" to "placing in range of 2 tiles", this way it isnt necessary to make your units to friendly units for CS like Greece.

Frigates appear late in the game, in that period, you already have to compete with civs with statecraft, generating 5 influence per turn by trade routes and people start using diplomats much more often.
How much options do you have in the early game to generate a steady stream of +2 influence for 1 or 2 CS? Not much. This ability is more focused on early and mid game, giving Germany something till the Hanse kicks in. And later on, it still gives an edge over enemies, even it's not more that huge advantage.

What is better:
Earning 2 heavy tributes
or
Gain Luxuries
City-State yields (and maybe also unit gifts)
Yields from UA for friendly/allied status of CS

The +3 Science/Culture for befriending a CS alone is bigger than any tribute you could get, except hammers helping in finishing a wonder maybe.

 

[Stalker0]

Numerical balance aside: gifts = IPT vs proximity = IPT amounts to differences in feel.

gifts has higher theoretical scale but at greater cost. Proximity would be more flexible but also less permanent.

gift UA could be denied through cs warring. Proximity could move the units tk a new cs to restart the bonus.


Both have merits.

btw, coding question as I’ve pondered this idea in the past, would it be possible to give a civ a specific social policy as it’s UA? If so, would that give the civ access tk the trees opener automatically or would they still need to meet the policy prereqs before doing so?

 

[InkAxis]

btw, coding question as I’ve pondered this idea in the past, would it be possible to give a civ a specific social policy as it’s UA? If so, would that give the civ access tk the trees opener automatically or would they still need to meet the policy prereqs before doing so?

Would be pretty easy.

 

[Drakle]

Instead of all these ideas about influence sources outside the world congress, how about something simple, like a Free Great Diplomat tied to a medieval tech, and Germany naturally produces them faster. Diplomatic Babylon. You can spend it on influence, or grab a embassy, which is a vote, but a vote through the normal city state mechanics.

 

[pineappledan]

Instead of all these ideas about influence sources outside the world congress, how about something simple, like a Free Great Diplomat tied to a medieval tech, and Germany naturally produces them faster. Diplomatic Babylon. You can spend it on influence, or grab a embassy, which is a vote, but a vote through the normal city state mechanics.

Can't do that for the same reason we can't have unique chancery building replacements: (2) CBP components need to be playable without (3) CSD installed so VP stays modular.

 

[pineappledan]

Well one thing's for sure, if the Unit gifting influence idea is approved, then 4UC needs a different UU for Germany, or the Ulfhedinn needs to be extensively reworked.

In 4UC, Germany has a unique warrior that can convert Barbarians on kill. So not only can you gift units away that you got at no cost, but you can also gift away the cheapest unit in the game for longer than anyone else, because they obsolete at Steel. It's impossible to tell if Influence for gifting units is balanced with a unit like this.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Yeah, the Ulfhedinn would boost the new UA a lot. If it was removed, what about moving the Panzer to more UC and remove the Ulfhedinn?

Another point to consider with gaining influence per turn from giftig units is militaristic city states. That would be the first alliances I would aim for so I can gift the free units to other CS.

It definitely sounds interesting.

Would it be possible to give the gifted units a promotion that allows to identify them and maybe give you vision as well? That could make it easier to keep them alive while you support an attacked CS ally. Maybe also a defensive buff for those units. With the current AI aggression towards city states it would be a unique goal to try and keep those units alive while you support them with your own units.

 

[Bruhmoment]

Hmmm.... I don't know. I think the ulfhedinn is fine as it is, I don't think it warrants a remove, but probably needs a nerf. I haven't tried out the working patch yet cause I'm too lazy to start a new game, but I imagine it's powerful going progress, spamming ulfhedinn's and gifting them to city states around the world

 

[Thibix Magnus]

many interesting options. I like the one with diplomat granting embassy and open borders as it is simple while allowing for many creative uses, but I would then grant a "diplomat-only" spy at the start of the game or entering medieval era, to avoid maing statecraft tree even-more mandatory (though there are other civs with almost- mandatory trees out there). Or just provide embassies and open borders with everyone outside of war, it's certainly easier to code but less thematic and interactive.

For the panzer I really understand people wanting to get further away from clichés and have no definitive feeling on the matter, but I do find quite unique having a civ (whichever it is) whose kit is not about war but has a potent UU late game if it wants to completely switch to domination after a mostly peaceful game.

 

[Sailor Clueless]

I may be late to this thread, but I wanted to express my desire to retain the base game's Furor Teutonicus in some form so that I have the option of doing the "No City Challenge"
I would therefore like to suggest that the 66.7% barbarian-capture ability be inherent in all German melee units of the Ancient & Classical eras. Unfortunately, I lack the coding knowledge to effect this myself.

 

[pineappledan]

@Sailor Clueless If you download my 3rd and 4th Unique Components for Vox Populi mod (link in my signature below), Germany gets a second unique unit there. It is a unique warrior, so you get a free 1 at the start, and it has a 50% chance to convert barbarian units it kills.