TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,993
as builder build archer and wall in city and hold off all attacks with oli hahaha
war chariets are pretty bad but maybe not worset
-
Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .
POLL: worst unique unit in Civ5
- Thread starter Jim Bro
- Start date
as builder build archer and wall in city and hold off all attacks with oli hahaha
war chariets are pretty bad but maybe not worset
woodshadows
King
slingers kick ass. combined with incans ignoring hill terrain you can a lot of strategic options in war.
Civciv5
Grand Emperor
The slinger,it's weaker then the archer and I have almost no use of it.
Bamboocha
Warlord
Why is the legion even on the list? In my last rome game they helped me greatly in jumpstarting the conquest of my entire continent, and most battles of any relevance had been fought before I could got to longswords (which make only a slight difference in strength). The legion and ballista were the sole reason I had a good base for overseas conquest.
I've got to go for Egypts war chariot. It has the exact same qualities as a normal chariot archer, except it doesn't use horses..... but animal husbandry is a prequisite tech for the wheel, and bar certain map types horses are the most abudent strategic resource around. I've rarely, if ever, played a game where horses weren't closeby. This means the war chariot litterally does nothing and has no right to exist. If I were to redesign the game, I'd delete the chariot archer and make the war chariot an egypt exclusive unit (probably a replacement for the horseman) which would give them an edge in classical era warfare.
I've got to go for Egypts war chariot. It has the exact same qualities as a normal chariot archer, except it doesn't use horses..... but animal husbandry is a prequisite tech for the wheel, and bar certain map types horses are the most abudent strategic resource around. I've rarely, if ever, played a game where horses weren't closeby. This means the war chariot litterally does nothing and has no right to exist. If I were to redesign the game, I'd delete the chariot archer and make the war chariot an egypt exclusive unit (probably a replacement for the horseman) which would give them an edge in classical era warfare.
woodshadows
King
war chariot is horrible. 5 moves just gets you that much quicker to placing yourself in harms way, which seems to be about the only way to use a ranged unit which can't move after attacking.. unless you're on defense and can hide behind a city or slowmoving troops in front of you (negating your speed advantage).
who cares if slingers are weaker than archers? they rarely get engaged in combat and their withdrawal from combat means constantly putting the enemy units out of position. the incan ability to ignore terrain costs of hills is especially helpful. once upgraded into crossbows it's even more powerful. where it really shines is upgraded into rifles. a rifleman with 80% chance of withdrawing from combat? yes please. a rifleman that can leap over a range of hills, getting to safety from mounted units who even if they did manage to catch you would have an 80% of failing to engage. slingers are kinda like jaguars, not that wonderful as their initial unit, mostly just an edge in barb busting, but once upgraded they become arguably amongst the best units in the game.
who cares if slingers are weaker than archers? they rarely get engaged in combat and their withdrawal from combat means constantly putting the enemy units out of position. the incan ability to ignore terrain costs of hills is especially helpful. once upgraded into crossbows it's even more powerful. where it really shines is upgraded into rifles. a rifleman with 80% chance of withdrawing from combat? yes please. a rifleman that can leap over a range of hills, getting to safety from mounted units who even if they did manage to catch you would have an 80% of failing to engage. slingers are kinda like jaguars, not that wonderful as their initial unit, mostly just an edge in barb busting, but once upgraded they become arguably amongst the best units in the game.
muhtesem insan
Amateur Revolutionary
well after the korean DLC i do not think there's much need to discuss.
Heh. Turtle ships are pretty tuhhhhhrible.
How can anyone seriously argue war chariots after they were improved? They are an excellent fit for the strength of their civ. They make for excellent defense for a civ that is geared toward early wonder building.
Also, remember: This thread was necro'd from May 2011.
How can anyone seriously argue war chariots after they were improved? They are an excellent fit for the strength of their civ. They make for excellent defense for a civ that is geared toward early wonder building.
Also, remember: This thread was necro'd from May 2011.
woodshadows
King
Excellent defense, explain? If you're wonder building you're probably not going to be controlling a very big empire to begin with, so the extra movement isn't a very big help. Resourceless is nice but it also means that if you don't have horses any upgrades will give you units with resource penalties on them.. unless they have some specific promotion which carries over of 'doesn't require a resource'.. but as far as I know they don't have this. Chariots in general are kind of blah imo.
Worst UU? That would be the Turtle Ship. At least now anyway.
Out of those on that list...
Chariots are not good. They can be useful IF you don't have much rough terrain nearby. But this isn't a fault with the chariot itself, rather the class of unit it replaces. This is a fault shared by the Sipahi, but the latter at least adds enough value to still be a solid unit.
Jaguars and Maori's keep their promotions and thus remain relevant throughout the game. The Maori is clearly better in this regard however.
Slingers are a bit dodgy, but again their promotion applies to upgrades and can come in handy.
Camel Archers are a solid UU. Not sure why they're on this list.
Ditto for Mohawk's and Legions, some of the strongest UU's in the game.
Minutemen suffer from early retirement, and their carry over promotion is not super helpful.
B-17's... well, they're both useless and very strong. In any game where you make it to modern and are warring, bombers are pretty much the best units you can build. So they're good in that way, and most higher difficulty games you won't generally be able to win before modern era becomes relevant.
Out of those on that list...
Chariots are not good. They can be useful IF you don't have much rough terrain nearby. But this isn't a fault with the chariot itself, rather the class of unit it replaces. This is a fault shared by the Sipahi, but the latter at least adds enough value to still be a solid unit.
Jaguars and Maori's keep their promotions and thus remain relevant throughout the game. The Maori is clearly better in this regard however.
Slingers are a bit dodgy, but again their promotion applies to upgrades and can come in handy.
Camel Archers are a solid UU. Not sure why they're on this list.
Ditto for Mohawk's and Legions, some of the strongest UU's in the game.
Minutemen suffer from early retirement, and their carry over promotion is not super helpful.
B-17's... well, they're both useless and very strong. In any game where you make it to modern and are warring, bombers are pretty much the best units you can build. So they're good in that way, and most higher difficulty games you won't generally be able to win before modern era becomes relevant.
terminus467
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2011
- Messages
- 26
Your inclusion of the legionnaire on this list raises a huge "Whut?" in my mind. I mean I play Rome in 90%+ of my MP matches and do... well, remarkably well with them. It is AWESOME that they build roads because, unlike regular swordsmen, they don't just gather dust in peacetime and it's one thing your workers don't have to do for you. It's also a good ability because it aids in your attack against enemies (building a road to an enemy or close to an enemy's location before you declare is very strategic and very effective). In fact I usually get a lot of complains about how overpowered the legionnaire is. At 13 combat strength it absolutely blows away its swordsman counterpart at 10 combat. I do agree that building forts is kinda pointless and honestly part of me thinks it's there for flavor. The road-building is far more advantageous. That being said, legionnaires can go up against longswordsmen and do pretty well for themselves, considering they are a tech behind. That's excellent for buying Rome time to develop its new conquests, researching steel, and building research buildings.
I just really really disagree with what you said about the legionnaire not being worth it. You drew some weird logic like "The legion costs 12.5% more but is only 18% more powerful." You can't draw a parallel line between cost and combat effectiveness like that. An 18% increase in combat strength, especially when we are talking below the twenty combat strength range, is way more significant than a 12.5% increase in production cost. Certainly when the production cost is so low. An increase of ten hammers from eighty to ninety is likely to cost two extra turns max. Probably only one if you focus on production as I do early on to pump out legionnaires and conquer my neighbors.
Honestly, my vote has to be for the minuteman. While it is nice to not have movement penalties, it just isn't different enough from the musketman to make it a worthwhile unique unit. I think a lower production cost would be in order. Not only would it make it more worthwhile, but it would make historical sense. The minutemen were expected to be ready very quickly.
I just really really disagree with what you said about the legionnaire not being worth it. You drew some weird logic like "The legion costs 12.5% more but is only 18% more powerful." You can't draw a parallel line between cost and combat effectiveness like that. An 18% increase in combat strength, especially when we are talking below the twenty combat strength range, is way more significant than a 12.5% increase in production cost. Certainly when the production cost is so low. An increase of ten hammers from eighty to ninety is likely to cost two extra turns max. Probably only one if you focus on production as I do early on to pump out legionnaires and conquer my neighbors.
Honestly, my vote has to be for the minuteman. While it is nice to not have movement penalties, it just isn't different enough from the musketman to make it a worthwhile unique unit. I think a lower production cost would be in order. Not only would it make it more worthwhile, but it would make historical sense. The minutemen were expected to be ready very quickly.
jtb1127
Deity
The good old war chariot is pretty useless.
Silverfuturist
King
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2010
- Messages
- 684
I agree that the war chariot is possibly the weakest UU... I am thinking the statement that its extra mobility is bad is sarcasm or something similar.
As far as slingers... I would rather have the retreat an option (it asks you if you want to retreat or stay in place), there are times when I don't want a retreated slinger/upgraded slinger for tactical reasons. For example, fortified rifle defending a key tile... mounted unit attacks it, it retreats. Mounted unit moves out of the way, opponent moves their rifle into tile. The AI is not sophisticated to attack like this unless by accident, but humans are, and humans are who I mostly play. When playing humans it is common for an attacked city to be in the red, with the only thing preventing a fast mounted unit from slipping and taking the city are strong fortified units... but oops because of the retreat feature, your rifles flee from the front line so a lancer can hop in and take the city.
Upgraded Jags are awesome... a Jag mech with blitz can chomp 3 artillary in 1 turn and still be at 100% stength at the end.
woodshadows
King
extra mobility isn't bad, but it doesn't contribute a whole lot either unless you happen to be in control of a sprawling empire.. which you likely won't be, not as egypt and not during the era in which you are using chariots. chariots seem to die horribly to everything, considering to shoot at anything they have to leave themselves in a position of proximity where even the slowest unit can attack them. you can keep them safe behind some swords/spears but in that case you might as well be using standard archers.
anyone voting jaguar hasn't used jaguars. stand behind a forest where the enemy archers can't fire at you, then rush them through the forest in one turn, healing any damage they've taken in killing the archer. the strategic possibilities of woodsman are immense and the healing of damage on kills make them incredibly hardy. i sometimes laugh at how easy and fast it is to take out neighbours with jags, these things are like the quechas of civ iv, letting you earlier than any other civ put yourself into a winning position.
turtlefang
Warlord
- Joined
- May 9, 2011
- Messages
- 155
Woodshadows nailed it about jags. People focus on the healing ability of Jags and forget that they come with two other promotions out of the gate - one's ok but not great, the other one nearly as good as the healing ability and gets better as the jag gets promoted.
1) the one not so great is the 50% defense bonus in jungle. its ok but just not used as much. can be a shocker as its often forgotten, especially in MP, and especially when a Mech Inf has it.
2) Woodscraft as it lets the jag has a LOT of mobility that other units in its class don't have. And it keeps this promotion (as it does the other two) in the entire infantry line.
If you build eight or nine of these guys and keep them to the end, you have Mech Inf that can move through forest/jungle, heal two points on killing something, and have a 50% defense in jungle terrain PLUS whatever promotions you've earned for them (usually at least shock I & II, cover I and medic by that time). That's FOUR earned promotions on top of the three "natural" promotions. It doesn't get much better than that. And four earned promotions by late game isn't that hard to get.
1) the one not so great is the 50% defense bonus in jungle. its ok but just not used as much. can be a shocker as its often forgotten, especially in MP, and especially when a Mech Inf has it.
2) Woodscraft as it lets the jag has a LOT of mobility that other units in its class don't have. And it keeps this promotion (as it does the other two) in the entire infantry line.
If you build eight or nine of these guys and keep them to the end, you have Mech Inf that can move through forest/jungle, heal two points on killing something, and have a 50% defense in jungle terrain PLUS whatever promotions you've earned for them (usually at least shock I & II, cover I and medic by that time). That's FOUR earned promotions on top of the three "natural" promotions. It doesn't get much better than that. And four earned promotions by late game isn't that hard to get.
MantaRevan
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2011
- Messages
- 1,537
I've always assumed, no matter what approach Firaxis takes to balance the game, that the Legions or Pretorians were automatically the best UU, and that Rome was the best civilization. Babylon and Korea were always cooler, but when it came down to it, rome was always better.
woodshadows
King
lots and lots of iron.
re: jaguar promotions. my last game i got a jag, promoted to longsword, with shock 3, march, blitz, amphibious, thing was invincible. took out four civs before reaching gunpowder and quit at that point as the game was already won. this was on emperor.
