Polling the Forum: Thoughts on Alternate Religious Conversion Systems

[Cokolwiek]

Current religious conversion model is fine as it is. I'd rather see a full spy system rework.

You have my sword, if we started iconic quotes communication.

These days the only option is to go nuclear with 4 prophets and kick them all at once in the enemy civ and build that damn religious wonder asap

I don't see your point. It is hard and I think it's intended and realistic. How many countries, regions, cultures changed their majority religion after death of their primary prophets (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, arguably Luther)?

 

[frktest]

Current religious conversion model is fine as it is. I'd rather see a full spy system rework.

I agree with that

 

[pineappledan]

Cutting out per turn religion would help a ton with stability, no doubt. Regardless of its effects on gameplay it would really shorten turn times as well.

I'm a bit ambivalent as to whether we should cut out passive spread. It's hard enough to think of ideas for enhancers to augment religion without trashing whole mechanics.

EDIT: @ilteroi's writeup of everything modifying religious spread certainly is dizzying to behold. No wonder I have found the system so unfair and opaque lately.

 

[Gidoza]

@ilteroi's Civfanatics account is busted- he can read posts obviously but he can't post anything here for some reason.

Ah.

 

[mikes61293]

I agree with this. Inquisitors completely stopping spread and completely removing all accumulated pressure is such a blunt and obtuse mechanic. Civ is essentially a bucket filling simulator but inquisitors just kick over your bucket and then stand on top of it for the rest of the game. Anytime I've used inquisitors, I always use 2 at once. First is to clear heresy and the second is to stay locked in sleep mode in a city for eternity. It's not very engaging at all

What if using an inquisitor created religious unrest equal to the number of citizens converted, decaying with time.

I think this would create several interesting dynamics involving rebellions. Converting a newly conquered city should create a rebellion, slowing down your army. Converting cities with religious unhappiness issues via inquisitor may require a force to quash a rebellion.

Inquisitors parked in cities could also create 1 religious unrest, to discourage just parking them in cities.

I'm not sure how the AI would handle these changes, but I'm interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on this proposal since we're discussing revamping the religious spread model and inquisitors should be a major part of that model.

 

[Bromar1]

What if using an inquisitor created religious unrest equal to the number of citizens converted, decaying with time.

I think this would create several interesting dynamics involving rebellions. Converting a newly conquered city should create a rebellion, slowing down your army. Converting cities with religious unhappiness issues via inquisitor may require a force to quash a rebellion.

Inquisitors parked in cities could also create 1 religious unrest, to discourage just parking them in cities.

I'm not sure how the AI would handle these changes, but I'm interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on this proposal since we're discussing revamping the religious spread model and inquisitors should be a major part of that model.

I like this idea, Passive spread and inquisitors should both be nerfed.

Less passive pressure -> less babysitter inquisitors mopping up routine heresy (boring, no-brainer decision) -> inquisitions now actually represent very significant diplo/cultural historical events.

Inquisitions should be big decisions with big consequences, not glorified bouncers who just stop you from playing the religion game. Other than faith cost/ maintenance and certain polytheistic beliefs, I don't know if there's any reason not to keep an inquisitor parked in every city and to immediately convert every city that flips. I consistently see non-founder AI aggressively removing heresy, it just seems so backward that launching a full on inquisition to protect a foreign religion would generate less religious unrest than letting new religions enter their lands.

 

[Zanteogo]

Ya.. my only beef with religion now is how the inquisitors work. They are way too powerful for what they cost. They pretty much null one of the functions of the great prophets.

If the AI was made to use them more effectively. (As protectors left in cities) I bet we would see more player pushing to change them.. Players are smart enough now to do this.. perhaps they AI should be too?

 

[pineappledan]

I like the idea of Inquisitors draining 100 Food, scaling with era, with the potential of losing population from inquisitor actions. You could make it so the inquisition belief (or Spain's UA) removes this malus.

 

[Ragic]

So why do inquisitors need to have a persistent effect at all?

 

[Zanteogo]

So why do inquisitors need to have a persistent effect at all?

I would be alright if they didn't. The problem is both of their abilities (the passive as well as the active) are way to over powered compared to the other religious units. If we are looking to limit their active, then their passive might need to stay.. or be changed to reflect the change. I think it depends on what change if any the powers here decide to do.

Just an idea, perhaps great prophets could not only by pass inquisitors when spreading, but also destroy them if they are in a city when used? (if the passive ability stays)

 

[crdvis16]

I can see two probable outcomes if inquisitors are nerfed:

1) More religious hegemony. Weaker religions might just get wiped out. Starting on a continent with a strong religious civ might mean trying to found is just not worth it. Weak religions getting wiped out already happens on occasion but will happen more. I dislike this outcome personally- 5 religions fighting all game (in a standard game) and occasionally wiping each other out feels right to me currently.

2) Using war to defend against missionaries. If you can't park inquisitors to stop missionaries then war might be used instead. I like this outcome- religion has always been a pretty big motivator for war, or at the very least has been an excuse for them. I think players will likely understand the importance of this tactic and use it but I wonder if the AI will do as good of a job with it. However, war is somewhat limited as a tool- weariness can eventually force peace at which point the missionary assault would likely resume.

Perhaps increase the missionary deterioration due to no open borders for missionaries if inquisitors are to be nerfed? That way the player and AI can strategically use that lever to defend against missionaries.

 

[Stalker0]

Perhaps increase the missionary deterioration due to no open borders for missionaries if inquisitors are to be nerfed?

You could also make it where an inquisitor next to or on the same space as a missionary doubles the unwelcome evangelist penalty.

 

[Zanteogo]

Holy city religious pressure can be upped to prevent smaller religion complete wipeout. It allows rival religions to take some boarder cities.. but makes your core much harder to totally convert.

 

[Edaka]

On my local install I have replaced all passive pressure boosts on temples and religious buildings with increased pressure via trade routes (doubled for everything except basilicas and churches, where it's tripled). I feel like this is a step in a better direction already. I can actually see more diverse religions in trading hubs now, while overall passive pressure doesn't seem so oppressive.

I'd like for some form of passive pressure to stay, by the way. I think a missionary only system would be too tedious.

 

[Deljade]

What does it mean that a trade route has been compelted?
To me it means that there have been friendly relations between the two states (civs) for quite a long time, this would allow for exchange of theological ideas.
It feels more intuitive to me when I think of it this way and a combination of both options seems reasonable to me. But otherwiseI'd just take it or leave it. Doesn't seem too important.