Poor ships, not divine hand, saved Japan from Mongolian invasion

[Knight-Dragon]

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050119/1/3pym2.html

Science has dealt a blow to a Japanese legend which says the country was twice saved from a Mongolian fleet thanks to a "divine wind," or kamikaze, that destroyed the invaders' ships.

A 900-ship fleet, sent by the Mongolian emperor Kublai Khan in 1274, met resistance from Japanese samurai before being forced into retreat by bad weather and was then ripped to pieces by the kamikaze.

Kublai Khan tried again eight years later, amassing a vast fleet of 4,400 ships from China and Korea, most of which were sunk by strong winds off the island of Takashima, in southern Japan.

Ancient documents describing winds that blew down trees suggest that there was indeed a big storm in Japan in 1281, although the evidence is unclear as to how bad the winds really were and how they might have affected the Mongolian fleet.

New evidence, though, suggests that poor design and shoddy workmanship may have been the principal cause of the Mongols' defeat, the British weekly New Scientist says in its next issue, out on Saturday.

Randall Sasaki, an archaeologist at Texas A&M University, has pored over fragmented remains of the 1281 fleet that were found in 1981.

Of about 700 pieces of ship hauled up from the seabed off Takashima, none was larger than three metres (10 feet), and most are between 10 centimetres (four inches) and one metre (3.25 feet).

The find initially disappointed many who had hoped for something bigger, but a closer examination of these pieces has given insights into Mongolian workmanship, New Scientist says.

Sasaki has studied around 500 of the fragments and says many of the timbers have nails placed very close together, sometimes with five or six in the same location.

"This suggests the timbers were recycled to construct these ships," he told New Scientist. "Also, some of the timbers were themselves of poor quality."

As for the design of the ship, Chinese documents suggest that many of the vessels in the 1281 fleet were flat-bottomed river boats, which would have been unstable in the open sea.

"So far, we have found no evidence of sea-going, V-shaped keels at Takashima," says Kenzo Hayashida of the Kyushu Okinawa Society for Underwater Archaeology, which found the remains of the fleet in 1981.

Sasaki hopes more will be revealed by sonar and ground-penetrating radar, for less than 0.5 percent of the site where the fleet sank has been studied so far.

 

[Akhhorus]

most of the fleet did sink, but some Mongol troops did land, and the Japanese did destroy them.

 

[Reno]

most of the fleet did sink, but some Mongol troops did land, and the Japanese did destroy them.

Huh? For what i know the whole Mongol Fleet did sink.

 

[Akhhorus]

Huh? For what i know the whole Mongol Fleet did sink.

Japanese myth.

A storm prevented Kublai Khan from invading the first time, but that wasnt the "kamikaze" of legend. He reformed the invasion force, actually landed troops, then the storm struck. The Japanese forces were able to destroy what troops had landed and the storm prevented reinforcement and only half of the Mongol army made it back alive.

 

[Adler17]

The Mongols were using Chinese and Korean seamen and shipbuilder. I don´t think the ships were of poor quality but a really bad leadership. The second time Kublai Khan learned nothing despite the warnings. His generals were no admirals. They fought a war in which they plundered and murdered around the coast, but they did not land to make a landing base to conquer Japan. When the storm was nearing they were warned by the Chinese seaman. But they didn´t here, so most ships were sunk. The troops still on land were eradicated by the Samurai, like the survivors who landed in Japan. Only very few ships could indeed escape. This was the last Chinese attempt to conquer Japan.

Adler

 

[Yoda Power]

If the ships were very badly made, then how did Kublai manage to get all the way to Java?

 

[North King]

I believe that it was the first time the Mongols landed, and were driven off. The second time it might have been shoddy shipbuilding, but not the first as they used excellent Korean warships that time.

 

[Steve Thompson]

The Mongols didn't build the ships, Chinese and Koreans did. I'm surprised that the article suggests crappy ships. Maybe they used timber from already-existing buildings to make enough ships for the huge invasion fleet, and the Mongols generals didn't know much about the sea or ships and probably wouldn't listen to the Chinese.

I thought they made landfall both times... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read in 1274 they were defeated by weather and samurai and withdrew, and in 1284 they landed a large army that outmatched the Japanese but the storm stranded them and it was just a matter of time before they all died one way or another.

 

[North King]

I thought they made landfall both times... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read in 1274 they were defeated by weather and samurai and withdrew, and in 1284 they landed a large army that outmatched the Japanese but the storm stranded them and it was just a matter of time before they all died one way or another.

Yah, I think that's right. Both times they landed in Hataka Bay, and the Japanese drove them off the first time, with minor help from the storms. The second time, they managed to do all right until the storm ruined them, and they were utterly destroyed by the Japanese. The Japanese were very good at hit and run raids with ships of a few samauri that destroyed much larger ships through killing their crews. Both times the Mongols were isolated on the islands in the bay, I believe, and were destroyed later. Second time the Mongols took some prisoners.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The Mongols were using Chinese and Korean seamen and shipbuilder. I don´t think the ships were of poor quality but a really bad leadership. The second time Kublai Khan learned nothing despite the warnings. His generals were no admirals. They fought a war in which they plundered and murdered around the coast, but they did not land to make a landing base to conquer Japan. When the storm was nearing they were warned by the Chinese seaman. But they didn´t here, so most ships were sunk. The troops still on land were eradicated by the Samurai, like the survivors who landed in Japan. Only very few ships could indeed escape. This was the last Chinese attempt to conquer Japan.

Adler

Correction. It was the second and the last time the Mongols attempted to conquer Japan.

The Yuan was never considered a proper Chinese imperial dynasty - it was foreign.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The vast bulk of the Song Chinese navy was the inland navy - the fleet defending the Yangzi river and preventing the northerners fr crossing it and attacking the Song. If the Mongols had made use of this riverine fleet to attack Japan, then the findings about the ships being meant for river use etc will make sense.

 

[bombshoo]

Maybe the Chinese, and Koreans sabotaged some...I mean they weren't particuarly fond of the Mongols....

 

[North King]

The vast bulk of the Song Chinese navy was the inland navy - the fleet defending the Yangzi river and preventing the northerners fr crossing it and attacking the Song. If the Mongols had made use of this riverine fleet to attack Japan, then the findings about the ships being meant for river use etc will make sense.

Were the Song conquered by then?

Anyway, I believe the creme de la creme of the Song fleet, the flying tiger warships were oceangoing...

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I wrote an article on the Mongol conquest of the Nan-Song. I *think* at least a part of the inland fleet mutined. Not sure...

 

[Khaghan]

"Correction. It was the second and the last time the Mongols attempted to conquer Japan.

The Yuan was never considered a proper Chinese imperial dynasty - it was foreign. "

No, even the Yuan was considered a legitimate dynasty as the History of Yuan written during the Ming documents. In fact Yuan invasion of Japan was politically a Chinese invasion pure and simple. Kublai's letter to Japan was politically a Chinese diplomatic document urging Japan to submit to the newly crowned Celestial dynasty. In it Kublai saids "Heaven has granted as the Middle kingdom and you oh king should submit to our country" Our country here refers to China under the Yuan at this time. And the Japanese viewed it as a Chinese invasion, so much that when Toyotomi Hideoshi planned to invade China, his slogan was to revenge China for its past invasion of Japan(refering to the Yuan invasion). In a time when nation state did not exist, ethnicity does not in anyway judge a nation which is a political concept. Just as Incas and Zatecs were conquered by Spaniards and not the Germans even though the king of Spain at that time was also Charles V of Germany and was known by that in Europe, the Yuan invasion of Japan and the various kingdoms of Southeast Asia was politically under the name of the Celestial Empire. Yuan is both Chinese and Mongol in foreign politics just as Spain and German were both under the Holy Roman Empire but still different politically when treating different people. The Yuan diplomats in East Asia was in the name of China while those in Central Asia and Mongolia was under the great Khans. This ought to be recognized once and for all. Its ironic how certain figure such as Richard the Lion heart were viewed as English kings and heros when in fact they are Norman conquerers while Kublai or Yuan Shi Zu was viewed as a Mongol emperor more so than the Son of heaven of China when the situation is virtually identical.

 

[Uiler]

I agree that the Yuan dynasty was a true Chinese dynasty, but the current popular image sees the Yuan rulers not as legitimate emperors but foreign oppressors who were opposed by "Han patriots". This image is in popular fiction and TV shows like the extremely popular Condor Heroes trilogy where I just know that no matter how much the various Han factions hate each other, at some point in each book they unite to fight against the "Mongolian dogs" as they are usually referred to. Also, I think the Yuan rulers are usually referred to by their Mongolian names rather than their Chinese emperor names. At least when I think of Mongolian rulers of China, I think "Dai Hong" (Khan) rather than "Wong-Dai" (emperor) since that is how they seem to referred to on Chinese TV. That and the Mongolian rulers and soldiers and officials are usually shown depicted in Mongolian costume rather than Han clothing accentuates the differences.

"Correction. It was the second and the last time the Mongols attempted to conquer Japan.

The Yuan was never considered a proper Chinese imperial dynasty - it was foreign. "

No, even the Yuan was considered a legitimate dynasty as the History of Yuan written during the Ming documents. In fact Yuan invasion of Japan was politically a Chinese invasion pure and simple. Kublai's letter to Japan was politically a Chinese diplomatic document urging Japan to submit to the newly crowned Celestial dynasty. In it Kublai saids "Heaven has granted as the Middle kingdom and you oh king should submit to our country" Our country here refers to China under the Yuan at this time. And the Japanese viewed it as a Chinese invasion, so much that when Toyotomi Hideoshi planned to invade China, his slogan was to revenge China for its past invasion of Japan(refering to the Yuan invasion). In a time when nation state did not exist, ethnicity does not in anyway judge a nation which is a political concept. Just as Incas and Zatecs were conquered by Spaniards and not the Germans even though the king of Spain at that time was also Charles V of Germany and was known by that in Europe, the Yuan invasion of Japan and the various kingdoms of Southeast Asia was politically under the name of the Celestial Empire. Yuan is both Chinese and Mongol in foreign politics just as Spain and German were both under the Holy Roman Empire but still different politically when treating different people. The Yuan diplomats in East Asia was in the name of China while those in Central Asia and Mongolia was under the great Khans. This ought to be recognized once and for all. Its ironic how certain figure such as Richard the Lion heart were viewed as English kings and heros when in fact they are Norman conquerers while Kublai or Yuan Shi Zu was viewed as a Mongol emperor more so than the Son of heaven of China when the situation is virtually identical.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

"Correction. It was the second and the last time the Mongols attempted to conquer Japan.

The Yuan was never considered a proper Chinese imperial dynasty - it was foreign. "

No, even the Yuan was considered a legitimate dynasty as the History of Yuan written during the Ming documents. In fact Yuan invasion of Japan was politically a Chinese invasion pure and simple. Kublai's letter to Japan was politically a Chinese diplomatic document urging Japan to submit to the newly crowned Celestial dynasty. In it Kublai saids "Heaven has granted as the Middle kingdom and you oh king should submit to our country" Our country here refers to China under the Yuan at this time. And the Japanese viewed it as a Chinese invasion, so much that when Toyotomi Hideoshi planned to invade China, his slogan was to revenge China for its past invasion of Japan(refering to the Yuan invasion). In a time when nation state did not exist, ethnicity does not in anyway judge a nation which is a political concept. Just as Incas and Zatecs were conquered by Spaniards and not the Germans even though the king of Spain at that time was also Charles V of Germany and was known by that in Europe, the Yuan invasion of Japan and the various kingdoms of Southeast Asia was politically under the name of the Celestial Empire. Yuan is both Chinese and Mongol in foreign politics just as Spain and German were both under the Holy Roman Empire but still different politically when treating different people. The Yuan diplomats in East Asia was in the name of China while those in Central Asia and Mongolia was under the great Khans. This ought to be recognized once and for all. Its ironic how certain figure such as Richard the Lion heart were viewed as English kings and heros when in fact they are Norman conquerers while Kublai or Yuan Shi Zu was viewed as a Mongol emperor more so than the Son of heaven of China when the situation is virtually identical.

I meant as in the modern Chinese hardly see the Yuan as a Chinese dynasty, despite what the Chinese of the period in question might have thought.

@Uiler - I like those shows too!

 

[Insane_Panda]

Anyway, I believe the creme de la creme of the Song fleet, the flying tiger warships were oceangoing...

Paddleships? Oceangoing? Something doesn't sound right there.

I thought the Flying Tiger Warships were mainly used for inland naval warfare...