Possibilities for Poland?

[El Castellano]

Poland (2 age) to Austria-Hungary (3 age) could work.
Anyway I do not think it is offensive that Poland unlock Germany or Russia/USSR. Both are relevant civilizations in industrial age and geographically close to Poland. And it is not like a civilization unlocking another implies that it is better or worse than the previous one. And if you want to play with a Poland of the Second Age and move on to another civilization that she did not unlock for herself you can always choose a leader that unlocks a civilization that you like the best.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

The game devs have said they want to depict civs at the peak of their power. With a limited knowledge of Polish history, I would assume the Polish-Lithuania polity (in its various forms) would be seen as that peak and therefore we wouldn't get Poland, but rather Poland-Lithuania. No idea if that would then be exploration or modern, as I don't yet have a good sense of what is determining which civs go in each.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The game devs have said they want to depict civs at the peak of their power. With a limited knowledge of Polish history, I would assume the Polish-Lithuania polity (in its various forms) would be seen as that peak and therefore we wouldn't get Poland, but rather Poland-Lithuania. No idea if that would then be exploration or modern, as I don't yet have a good sense of what is determining which civs go in each.

It's also referred to as the First Polish Republic, so I feel like it would still mostly feel like the Polish civ of past games, though with a more Early Modern period take, than a Medieval representation.

 

[gdr_willter]

I don't know very well about Poland history and how Polish people feel. But as Korean, I don't want to see Exploration Joseon derived into Modern Meiji in the game. I guess Polish gamers also will prefer their own Modern Civ.

I know that many people are considering the Exploration Age is the exact "pre-modern" period, but I don't think so. If FXS wanted to describe the 2nd Age as the long era from the European Middle Age to the end of the pre-modern history, they need something more than the Spanish empire model. I consider it only contains narrower period before the rising of well-known British and French empires.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I know that many people are considering the Exploration Age is the exact "pre-modern" period, but I don't think so. If FXS wanted to describe the 2nd Age as the long era from the European Middle Age to the end of the pre-modern history, they need something more than the Spanish empire model. I consider it only contains narrower period before the rising of well-known British and French empires.

I'd consider the Exploration Age roughly ending in the early stages of the "Pre-Modern" period, which would be the early1600s. That would give precedent to civs like the Mughals who will be in the Modern Age.

 

[Krajzen]

The game devs have said they want to depict civs at the peak of their power. With a limited knowledge of Polish history, I would assume the Polish-Lithuania polity (in its various forms) would be seen as that peak and therefore we wouldn't get Poland, but rather Poland-Lithuania. No idea if that would then be exploration or modern, as I don't yet have a good sense of what is determining which civs go in each.

Other people have already said it: we got Mughals as a modern era civ, which means "modern "era" encapsulates the entire 17th century as well. I am 90% sure when we get Ottomans also get them in the modern era for this reason - sure it's not 16th century of Suleiman, but Ottomans were still a massive global power in the 17th (and in many aspects they still held well in the 18th - econmically they only started looking really bad once industrial rev started in the West).

Thus, Poland in the modern era is the best, as it includes the diversity of
1) PLC at the peak of its power in the 1600 - 1648 period (including the military achievement Poles are most proud of: being the only ones aside from Mongols to capture and actually hold Moscow for a while )
2) PLC during enormous drama 1648-67 which is disastrous period but also very famous in culture
3) Limited recovery in the second half of the century, Sobieski's rule, and famous victories over Ottomans being the swan song of PLC power, the last international moment of fame
4) Potentially - all Polish history afterwards, which was very dramatic, sometimes tragic, but also had a ton of cultural achievements and finally the century of succesful modern state building (actually economically speaking the golden age of Poland is not 16th century but literally now, as we've never in history been as close to Western income and productivity as today in AD 2024)

Personally I prefer that over Poland in the exploration era because while happier and more peaceful it was less interesting by comparision. When you add exploration era Poland you get: 1) Golden ages of the 15th and 16th century - but modern design also catches the spirit of it in the first part of 17th, 2) 14th century, which was already overexploited in the civ series, with two games hard focusing on it, and 3) Honestly very unremarkable Polish history before the 14th century (of essentialy medium sized, backwards, not very distinctive Latin kingdom of only local importance)

Also, putting Poland in the modern era would allow it to face Prussia, Russian empire, most likely Ottoman empire, and potentially also Austrian and Swedish empires, as they too would get into modern era if it encompasses 17th and 18th centuries. By comparision, who the hell would we fight in the exploration era? Normans and Spain?

 

[Geminus Leonem]

Other people have already said it: we got Mughals as a modern era civ, which means "modern "era" encapsulates the entire 17th century as well. I am 90% sure when we get Ottomans also get them in the modern era for this reason - sure it's not 16th century of Suleiman, but Ottomans were still a massive global power in the 17th (and in many aspects they still held well in the 18th - econmically they only started looking really bad once industrial rev started in the West).

Thus, Poland in the modern era is the best, as it includes the diversity of
1) PLC at the peak of its power in the 1600 - 1648 period (including the military achievement Poles are most proud of: being the only ones aside from Mongols to capture and actually hold Moscow for a while )
2) PLC during enormous drama 1648-67 which is disastrous period but also very famous in culture
3) Limited recovery in the second half of the century, Sobieski's rule, and famous victories over Ottomans being the swan song of PLC power, the last international moment of fame
4) Potentially - all Polish history afterwards, which was very dramatic, sometimes tragic, but also had a ton of cultural achievements and finally the century of succesful modern state building (actually economically speaking the golden age of Poland is not 16th century but literally now, as we've never in history been as close to Western income and productivity as today in AD 2024)

Personally I prefer that over Poland in the exploration era because while happier and more peaceful it was less interesting by comparision. When you add exploration era Poland you get: 1) Golden ages of the 15th and 16th century - but modern design also catches the spirit of it in the first part of 17th, 2) 14th century, which was already overexploited in the civ series, with two games hard focusing on it, and 3) Honestly very unremarkable Polish history before the 14th century (of essentialy medium sized, backwards, not very distinctive Latin kingdom of only local importance)

Also, putting Poland in the modern era would allow it to face Prussia, Russian empire, most likely Ottoman empire, and potentially also Austrian and Swedish empires, as they too would get into modern era if it encompasses 17th and 18th centuries. By comparision, who the hell would we fight in the exploration era? Normans and Spain?

Your post made me realize that they might actually split Poland between Exploration and Modern era.

Piast Poland as an Exploration civ focused on defense and faith (Barbicans, Grodzis and the like as unique buildings) with Rycerze as the military unit and an unique missionary or trader as the unique civilian unit PLUS the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth as a Modern Era Civ focused more on culture and economy with the unique stuff I posted before (Sukkienice, Winged Hussars, Szlactha, etc)

I just don't really know what wonder would a Modern PLC have associated, unless we want to venture into the XXth century with the Palace of Culture and Science.

 

[HktkNban]

Well, to maximize commercial profit, it makes sense to include medieval Poland in the base game and add modern Poland as DLC.

“Oh, poor Poles. Your homeland has failed to modernize and is destined to become a part of either Germany or Russia. It’s unfortunate, but historically accurate.”
“But wait! If you purchase the Modern Poland DLC, you’ll gain the option to avoid this humiliating fate!”
“Come on, buy the DLC and lead the great Polish civilization to glory with your own hands!”

For similar reasons, Silla or modern Korea might also be added as DLC.
“Come on, Koreans! If you want to escape a past of being part of China or a future of becoming part of Japan, buy the DLC!”

 

[gdr_willter]

Well, to maximize commercial profit, it makes sense to include medieval Poland in the base game and add modern Poland as DLC.

“Oh, poor Poles. Your homeland has failed to modernize and is destined to become a part of either Germany or Russia. It’s unfortunate, but historically accurate.”
“But wait! If you purchase the Modern Poland DLC, you’ll gain the option to avoid this humiliating fate!”
“Come on, buy the DLC and lead the great Polish civilization to glory with your own hands!”

For similar reasons, Silla or modern Korea might also be added as DLC.
“Come on, Koreans! If you want to escape a past of being part of China or a future of becoming part of Japan, buy the DLC!”

We know both are not in the base game. No need to say like this.

 

[Prester John 2]

Who could be an antiquity age predecessor of an exploration age Polish empire? Goths? Vandals? If they aren't represented as a civ in their own right at least they should feature as an independent people.

 

[Krikkit1]

Well, to maximize commercial profit, it makes sense to include medieval Poland in the base game and add modern Poland as DLC.

“Oh, poor Poles. Your homeland has failed to modernize and is destined to become a part of either Germany or Russia. It’s unfortunate, but historically accurate.”
“But wait! If you purchase the Modern Poland DLC, you’ll gain the option to avoid this humiliating fate!”
“Come on, buy the DLC and lead the great Polish civilization to glory with your own hands!”

For similar reasons, Silla or modern Korea might also be added as DLC.
“Come on, Koreans! If you want to escape a past of being part of China or a future of becoming part of Japan, buy the DLC!”

Which is why Exploration Age Poland should only be added After they have made it possible to keep your civ name& city list.

 

[Krajzen]

Who could be an antiquity age predecessor of an exploration age Polish empire? Goths? Vandals? If they aren't represented as a civ in their own right at least they should feature as an independent people.

Goths and Vandals have very little if any cultural continuity with "Poland" as a cultural continuuum, they left those lands to be settled from Slavs almost from scratch, so while they would be not the worst take it'd still be far from satisfying. There were also pre-Germanic peoples within modern day Poland, most notably Lusatians of Biskupin fame, but they have the same continuity problem while being from very obscure bronze age archeological era of Europe.

By far the best ancestors would be

1) Slavs (ancient civ not by chronology but regional logic, sam as Khmer and Missisipians)
2) Scythians (it works surprisingly well not just because of gameplay continuity of cavalry civ and geographic adjacency, but because early modern Polish nobles' founding myth and identity was that they are proudly descended from Scythians/Sarmatians)

That being said, I prefer modern Poland, so the real question which I haven't thought about is actually "who does Poland descend FROM" - maybe that'd be an argument for medieval Slavs after all? I could actually accept Moravia, bonus of solution would be the ability to derive both Polish and Czech people from it (and Czech should really be added to the game at this point, if both Poles and Hungarians got in).

 

[Loderingo]

The other options for Exploration Poland will be to go to Sweden (or at a push Ottomans)

If we look at the whole eventual roster for Europe and environs it could look something like this:

Ancient (7)

Rome
Greece
Carthage/Phoenicia (would expect to transition to Spain and Portugal as well as African Civs)
Gaul/Celts
Huns/Goths/Vandals
Scythia
Macedon

Exploration (12)

Spain
Normans
Portugal
Holy Roman Empire
Poland
Vikings/Norway/Denmark
Byzantium
Netherlands
Kievan Rus?
Genoa/Venice?
Scotland?
Georgia?

Modern (8)

France
Britain
Ottomans
Germany
Russia
Italy
Austria-Hungary
Sweden

It's a bit unbalanced between the ages, which is why Kievan Rus,Genoa/Venice, Scotland and Georgia might not make the cut (also why Normans are a substitute for England and mediaeval France)

 

[Evie]

As you note, you would probably need to even out these numbers, to make the connections and primary paths work properly - if you have 12 exploration civs you probably want around 12 in the other ages too. Especially if some of the ancient civ also feed into Africa.

I woukd also wager on Norse being ancient (so they can lead into Normans - there is no point to both Norse and Normans being in the same era).

 

[Krikkit1]

I would definitely leave off macedon (Greece+Alexander Leader) and the kievan Rus (Norse group->modern russia can model that)…otherwise a good list for the 90 civ point.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

That being said, I prefer modern Poland, so the real question which I haven't thought about is actually "who does Poland descend FROM" - maybe that'd be an argument for medieval Slavs after all? I could actually accept Moravia, bonus of solution would be the ability to derive both Polish and Czech people from it (and Czech should really be added to the game at this point, if both Poles and Hungarians got in).

I mentioned this on the German thread, but they could possibly have the Teutonic State which could go into Poland, as well as Germany/Prussia, and Russia. I've heard Exploration Age Lithuania mentioned too, but I'm not too sure.

 

[LastSword]

Pathways are all cool but I feel like unique infrastructure would be an actual issue for Poland and probably many other european civilizations.

Both Ducal Stable and Cloth Hall were kind of edgy choices. Mentioned city hall and marketplace are not too impressive as well.
On top of that a world wonder is now required.
Of course you can always force something but I feel like there are better choices for civ7 both in Europe and outside of it. Poland can easily make a break for an iteration.

And Jadwiga was a non-piast leader.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Both Ducal Stable and Cloth Hall were kind of edgy choices. Mentioned city hall and marketplace are not too impressive as well.
On top of that a world wonder is now required.

I could see the Krakow Cloth Hall being a World Wonder.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Other people have already said it: we got Mughals as a modern era civ, which means "modern "era" encapsulates the entire 17th century as well.

Maybe this will prove to be true, but I very much doubt you'll be able to point to a single year, like 1600, and say "everything after this goes into modern, everything before this goes into exploration".

They didn't do it with the Ancient - Exploration divide. See the discussion on why Khmer are in the Ancient, so I'm not sure why they would do it for the Exploration-Modern divide. They seem to have factors they weigh in deciding to which era they assign a civ, and while dates are part of it, they aren't determinative. At least not for the Ancient-Exploration allocation.

 

[Lebo44]

IMO a very good fit for a World Wonder from Poland would be The Great Salt Mine:
Wieliczka Salt Mine

It was one of the biggest companies back then in Europe and main source of income of Poland through ages (it was discontinued just in 1996!). Today its one of the main tourist attractions in Poland and Unesco Heritage Site. Pretty important landmark and of much much more importance than the Cloth Hall.