Possible collaborative project: Truly Heroic Mod

[cottoncandy]

'Lo all! I've read the thread, and I must say, this all sounds awesome. I figured I'd throw in a couple of cents as well, for your consideration.

1) The thing that scares me the most about this, is a player creating an army of ancient/classical type soldier dudes and conquering the world. With such an outstanding number of turns, I'm sure the number one problem will be to actually keep the game going so long. The AI will try and conquer, I'm sure, and so will many players! World Conquest before the AD might become the norm, unless something's done.

An idea is to make conquering civilizations harder. My biggest pet peeve about Civ4 is that it seems to me that everytime you lose a war, you lose the game. The end. The AI gives you a beating, and you can no longer fight the war? Good chance is you're just gonna have to reload, 'cuz it's over for you.

You could counter this, by making every city you capture a significant gain, but not a game killer for the victim. You also have to make it so that the player can't just march in and take 20 cities in one war! Captured cities should need to be garrisoned, or face the risk of open revolt. Resistance in the city should last for a good long time as well, so capturing an enemy city should require some thought.

This'll make the player think more about his conquests and make wars more realistic. Player A attacks player B, conquers two cities, and then a peace treaty is signed, both because player A can't really go on until he's silenced the resistance, and because player B's army obviously isn't up for the task of defending his cities properly.

Not to mention, this'll let the game last longer into the future! =)


2) Players should not be able to build armies without having the proper facilities. All towns should be able to build garrison and militia units. Garrisons being cheap defensive units, and militia being even cheaper buffer units (3 militias can keep 2 riflemen from taking a city for at least ONE turn, they only get two attacks). The most ancient units might be excempt (sp?) from this; warriors and spearmen, that is. Swordmen might require forges, galleys would need harbours, destroyers would need dry-docks, fighters would need airplane factories, tanks would need vehicle/tank factories and so on.

This is to make a bigger difference between cities, stragetically. Tokyo might be targetted by an attack instead of Osaka, because Tokyo can build bombers; which just so happen to be bugging the living daylights out of your troops. In comparison, you might station three riflemen in Essex, but only one in Hampshire because Essex is the only city you have so far that can build riflemen.

Again, with the whole 'harder conquest' ideas, this would mean that a player capturing a military heavy city would be more than happy about his gains (and his enemy would be even more eager to build up an army and try to take it back). So maybe we'd not only see wars over resources, but wars over key industrial cities!

3) My advice is to have as few as possible empty techs! All techs should do SOMETHING for the player; even if they're minimal. If you decide to go for the idea of needing specific structures for specific units, it shouldn't be too hard. Split the 'tank' tech into tank factories and tanks. That's two happy-go-lucky techs. =)

4) Since the game stretches so far out, an idea could be to have different variations of each unit. Especially in the modern age, you seem to jump from 20 strength units, to 28, and suddenly, whoa, 40. I always felt the player needed something in between, which gave me an idea; have up to 3 different versions of some units. An example;

Early tanks < Tanks < Late tanks
/
Early Modern Tanks < Modern Tanks < Late Modern Tanks.

Differences would be purely numerical; greater strength, movement, possibly different starting promotions. I'm sure you get the idea. =)

5) New units. One idea being CAS airplanes. Those would be early fighter-types with a smaller range, but with 50% to 100% bonuses against armored units and artillery. These things had a huge impact in WW2, and I think they should be in Civ.

6) More stragetic resources. I'd like to see rubber, and various old-age type stuff. Bamboo might be required for certain types of spearmen, stone might be required to build any types of wall at all and wood should definately be in. Fluff as required. =)

(Though wood might be kinda of weird. You'd have forests, and then you'd have.. uh.. forests?? Double weird if you'd have forests in the forests.)



I think that's about it right now. These are just suggestions! I'm sure at least half of these are bad ideas, but hey. I'd rather offer bad ideas, than no ideas at all.

 

[Zuul]

To prevent exploration of all the world early on, add a new feature that shrink the explored map, berfore you get to know map making. If a tile have not been explored in a while it will go dark (faster the futher away from home).

 

[Son of Moose]

Cottoncandy

Thank you so much for your comprehensive and extremely interesting post!!

You also have to make it so that the player can't just march in and take 20 cities in one war!

I wholeheartedly agree with your first point (concern). Obviously, this ultra-epic mod must be designed for AND PLAYED AS a non-rushing type of game. It would totally defeat the whole purpose of this mod for a player to try to "pump out" a huge number of units (without building any structures or improvements) with the sole purpose of trying to eliminate all his/her opponents. I would indeed be extremely suprised to see a game extending in (say) the Medieval era with such a short-term strategy.

I think that it would be a fairly honest (and accurate) appraisal to state the the primary emphasis of this mod would be on CITY AND EMPIRE BUILDING (with all the new technologies, buildings, aesthetic/cultural structures and terrain improvements to implement) rather than pure military activity. Sure .... it will be important to DEFEND one's growing Empire from one's enemies (including the Barbarians) and it will (most probably) eventually be necessary to CONQUER one's enemies (unless a technological or other more peaceful victory path is chosen).

I like your ideas raised in this point .... although they might might destroying captured cities a more viable option. However, this is now an important strategic option .... do one's gains exceed one's liabilities in this case.

Players should not be able to build armies without having the proper facilities.

Indeed .... I am strongly in favour of having a much wider range of military buildings. For example, in the Ancient era, there would be Barracks, Stables, Archery Range, Siege Workshop, Academy, Ballista Tower (maybe up to five per city), Walls, etc .... which can be upgraded in later eras. (This topic will need some discussion .... e.g. Ballista Tower could eventually become SAM Battery).

In this way, the player would possibly be forced to decide on his/her individual city building plans: economic vs cultural vs military structures (or a mixture).

All techs should do SOMETHING for the player

Indeed!!

Several of the new technologies could (should) lead to some of the new buildings. Btw: I like your suggestion.

TO BE CONTINUED

 

[Son of Moose]

Cottoncandy

Since the game stretches so far out, an idea could be to have different variations of each unit. Especially in the modern age, you seem to jump from 20 strength units, to 28, and suddenly, whoa, 40. I always felt the player needed something in between, which gave me an idea; have up to 3 different versions of some units

Maybe .... I am not too sure about this one. It might tend to dilute the ingame unit promotions.

New units. One idea being CAS airplanes

Possibly .... especially if there appears to be a real need for any patricular unit.

More stragetic resources

MOST DEFINITELY!!

I am sure that we could propose MANY new resources that could meaningfuly add to the gameplay .... possibly by enabling new technologies, buildings and terrain improvements. This is an EXTEMELY IMPORTANT consideration!!

I think that's about it right now. These are just suggestions! I'm sure at least half of these are bad ideas, but hey. I'd rather offer bad ideas, than no ideas at all.

EXCELLENT!!

It would be great if fellow forum members could propose various ideas that would be relevant to this proposed ultra-epic mod and provide (fairly) detailed suggestions on how to implement them!!

 

[Son of Moose]

Zuul

To prevent exploration of all the world early on, add a new feature that shrink the explored map, berfore you get to know map making. If a tile have not been explored in a while it will go dark (faster the futher away from home).

Maybe something like this could indeed work .... although I am not exactly sure how it would be implemented.

I certainly think that it would be a good idea to keep the various ingame players apart for a while in order to prevent rushing and to allow for the building of solid defences (or whatever).

 

[cottoncandy]

Oh, which reminds me; more national wonders! Especially for ICBM's, I think. The nation that builds the Manhattan project unlocks the ability to build ICBM's in that city. Then all nations get a national wonder called "ICBM Factory" or whatnot; with only ONE of those being able to be built. The city that has the factory can build ICBM's. This stops the player from having like.. 8 cities building ICBM's (been there, done that). That is, besides the one with the Manhattan project, which has two cities (Manhattan + ICBM factory).

I loved the idea of Hit Singles being tradeable. How about weapons?

 

[Willowmound]

This stops the player from having like.. 8 cities building ICBM's (been there, done that). That is, besides the one with the Manhattan project, which has two cities (Manhattan + ICBM factory).

Why would that be an issue?

 

[Son of Moose]

Cottoncandy

Oh, which reminds me; more national wonders!

Another extremely valid idea!!

However, I would imagine that the ICBM is a bona fide weapon (rather than a Wonder). Maybe one could build something named the Doomsday Device instead .... which would make nukes (including ICBM's) even stronger.

Yes .... ICBM factory (advanced munitions factory, or whatever) is a good idea for an additional structure.

Btw: I agree with Willowmound's concern .... imho it would seem rather restrictive.

 

[kandalf]

Here is a list of some techs you could use.
http://civ3.bernskov.com/RaR/about.asp

 

[Son of Moose]

Kandalf

Thank you for the link to the DYP website.

Yes .... I am a great fan of this mod and certainly feel that it is quite possibly the most comprehensive Civ 3 mod currently available.

I think that we could do a lot worse than starting this proposed LITTLE mod from the DYP perspective and seeing what additional elements (techs, buildings, resources, etc) could possibly be added to it. However, it might also just be appropriate to trim a few of the DYP buildings as (imho) there does seem to be a fair degree of overlap between some of them.

Of course, it might be a good idea to discuss some of these features in order to see whehter they would still be wholly appropriate to Civ 4.

 

[maxpublic]

The thing that scares me the most about this, is a player creating an army of ancient/classical type soldier dudes and conquering the world.

That happened in unmodified, previous versions of Civ as well. It was a point of pride for some to conquer the world when the chariot was still the unit of choice.

With such an outstanding number of turns, I'm sure the number one problem will be to actually keep the game going so long.

The AI will probably need some help, especially if you keep (or expand upon) the rock-paper-scissors approach to warfare that Civ 4 has. The AI just doesn't use the system very well at all, something I improved by removing the system altogether (but you may not want to do that). I wouldn't give it bonuses to tech advancement or anything that might speed up the game, but rather a discount on purchasing units - say, 25%.

A decent player will always do better than the AI. We're still waiting for the day when someone skilled in AI actually decides to work for the gaming industry.

The AI will try and conquer, I'm sure, and so will many players! World Conquest before the AD might become the norm, unless something's done.

Unfortunately, this doesn't appear to be true. I playtested one long game (2500 turns), three smallish games before I aborted them (500-1000 turns), and about a dozen starters (less than 500 turns). After an initial period of expansion and warfare the AI becomes unusual placid - except to the player. If the player isn't at least 50% ahead of his neighbors in victory points the neighbors can and will attack the player; but after a certain time they seem to be extremely reluctant to attack one another. The chance that they'll fight one another drops to zero, or nearly so, after the first 500 turns. I haven't figured out why yet.

You could counter this, by making every city you capture a significant gain, but not a game killer for the victim. You also have to make it so that the player can't just march in and take 20 cities in one war! Captured cities should need to be garrisoned, or face the risk of open revolt. Resistance in the city should last for a good long time as well, so capturing an enemy city should require some thought.

This is something I was trying to do in my own game. I gave all infantry units a +25% bonus when defending in cities, and made walls/castles +50% each. Combine all of this with a high culture bonus and you get a +225% to defense. It wasn't enough to stop me from taking cities at will - at least a few at a time. I did, however, need two relatively large armies: one to make the attacks, and one to defend my own lands against the inevitable counterattacks. And I should note that in my own game there are no artillery units, so defenses couldn't be reduced before the assault.

Players should not be able to build armies without having the proper facilities.

An excellent idea. You might also think about drastically increasing the costs of units so that every unit counts - and so that the AI doesn't build hundreds or thousands of them and slow your game to a crawl.

Max

 

[Son of Moose]

Maxpublic

The AI just doesn't use the system very well at all, something I improved by removing the system altogether (but you may not want to do that). I wouldn't give it bonuses to tech advancement or anything that might speed up the game, but rather a discount on purchasing units - say, 25%.

Removing the default system altogether might be a bit much .... as I am keen to try to preserve as much of the default gameplay elements as possible. The idea would be to maintain these basic elements wherever possible and augment them with several new technologies, buildings, terrain improvements, etc. The unit discount might have a good balancing effect though ....

I gave all infantry units a +25% bonus when defending in cities, and made walls/castles +50% each. Combine all of this with a high culture bonus and you get a +225% to defense.

As part of the (generally) builder-friendly philosophy of this mod, I would certainly like to see the introduction of a whole range of defensive structures into the game (such as the ability of individual cities to build multiple Ballista Towers in the Ancient era) so that not only the player will find it more challenging to capture ai cities but, in turn, the ai might find it more difficult to do the same to the inexperienced (or more peace-loving expansive) player.

 

[cottoncandy]

To explain just a bit: The idea of only getting one ICBM Factory is because this is such a long game, that if you'd have a few cities manufacturing ICBM's, you could in a short period of time have enough nukes to obilerate an entire enemy nation, and then just mop up the survivors; rather than having to use the ICBM with care. 8 large cities building ICBM's will give you a huge arsenal in a short time (relatively, considering the span of the modded game), where as one (or two, with Manhattan Project) will still give you nukes, just not enough of them quickly enough to destroy all those who oppose with relative ease.

I love using nukes, it just doesn't seem to be as... special when I've got about 20 of them lying around. The mushroom cloud (in my opinion) should be a fearful and rare sight, not a couple popping up every time there's a gunfight.

But of course, fun comes first (right?), and if this doesn't sound fun, then ignore it.

 

[Son of Moose]

Cottoncandy

Thanks for the detailed rationale .... which does indeed make good sense.

However, an alternative option might be to introduce a fairly powerful "Star Wars"-type anti-nuclear defence shield .... afaik, this was possible in Civ 3 (leading to something like only a 25 per cent chance of success with a nuclear strike).

Therefore, there would be a strong chance that the ICBMs would be totally ineffective. Some sort of meaningful UN sanction should then follow this event .... so that one has to think long and hard about the consequences of "nuking" an opponent.

 

[FexFX]

MaxPublic:
Well if all you want is a LONGER game...more turns, slower tech developement and no real changes to anything else at all, I can make such a mod for you in about 5 minutes. I would only need to modify about 20 numbers divides among two files. That's it.
And you'd have your mod.
Tho really my biggest problem with this is not really about whether or not there is a new tech to research...its in a LACK of things to do.
In the early era...lets say before Bronze working...You have three military units total. Warrior. Spearmen. Archer. and a small number of improvements. Do you really want to spend a few hundred turns at that tech level with nothing more than those three unit types?

Are you instead proposing the same NUMBER of techs, but each tech does MORE? So that Archery creates several different archery units or something?

 

[FexFX]

As to division of techs based on Civ...
Wow...
Yah GREAT idea...but I am gonna have to pass for our first run through this mod deal...
That would mean making 18 different version of certain techs, and possibly 18 different tech trees...
Granted SOME might be the same so it'd only be like 9 or 10 maybe...but still...I want to do one tech tree for this first outing.

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

Are you instead proposing the same NUMBER of techs, but each tech does MORE? So that Archery creates several different archery units or something?

I am not too sure that Maxpublic was actually referring to this .... but I am becoming rather excited about this particular possibility.

I think that it might well have some MOST INTERESTING possibilities if developed in a truly creative fashion.

I am not too sure about dividing techs according to the individual civs .... this imho would be a HUGE undertaking that might detract from the main purpose of augmenting the default tech tree.

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

Could you try to develop the following fairly simple "tester" mod:

• Feature a massive number of turns (say 3000+) divided approximately according to my schema appearing in the initial post of this thread
• Substantially increase the default settings for the individual technologies so that these figures will remain proportional to their length in a 440 turn game (for the simple reason that there are currently no new techs to add to the tech tree)
• Maintain the default city improvement lengths (for buildings and units as well as terrain improvements) .... so that this mod will feature the conventional fairly brisk developmental gameplay of Vanilla Civ and (with the massively increased number of turns) potentially become either a Builder's and/or a Warrior's dream!!

In many respects, this mod will be LITTLE without all the additional proposed "bells and whistles".

 

[FexFX]

Okay, as silly as it is, here is the LITTLE (mini mod)
=================
3080 turns in all game modes.
Starting year 8000BC
Tech research has been stretched to 7 times length in all modes.
No other changes. This means that Building speeds for Units, improvements and wonders is the exact same for each speed as it would be if the game were only 320, 440 or 660 turns. Those build rates are 67%, 100% and 150% respectively.

This is what MaxPublic wanted to play.

 

[FexFX]

Just so we are clear I am still moving ahead with the developement of my own tech tree.