Possible collaborative project: Truly Heroic Mod

[Finarfin]

well...
you realize you can just turn off the time victory condition right?

Actually, I may have overlooked the obvious. So if you turn off the time victory there is no hard coded game year that is the end of the game?

 

[FexFX]

But its no fun playing if you dont have anything new to get - new wonders, new units, etc. Modern era is my favorite, but it goes too quickly. I look foward to this mod as well, but playing 500 turns in ancient era, and only 80 in industrial... Ill be able to make war against everyone in stone age, but only one or two wars in industrial.

BTW, i didnt read the entire topic. How many new nations, techs, improvements and wonders will this mod have?

No hard numbers YET.

43 new techs so far (that's half as many as the original tree!)
and a slew of buildings.
So far just a handful of new units
a couple of new wonders...As to wonders tho...I mean come on...the real world only has 7 modern and 7 ancient.

 

[FexFX]

Actually, I may have overlooked the obvious. So if you turn off the time victory there is no hard coded game year that is the end of the game?

Yup if you turn that off you can go forever.
or until one of the other victory conditions is met.

 

[poser002]

Well 7 wonders in the real world but those are huge wonders. There alot of small wonders that really are great wonders if u know what i mean lol. lets see there are

THE SEVEN WONDERS OF THE ANCIENT WORLD

The Great Pyramid of Giza
The Hanging Gardens of Babylon
The Statue of Zeus at Olympia
The Colossus of Rhodes
The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus
The Mausoleum at Halicarnassus
The Pharos of Alexandria (The Lighthouse of Alexandria)


THE MODERN WONDERS OF THE WORLD

Channel Tunnel (England & France)
CN Tower (Toronto)
Empire State Building (New York)
Golden Gate Bridge (San Francisco)
Itaipu Dam (Brazil/Paraguay)
Netherlands North Sea Protection Works (Netherlands)
Panama Canal (Panama)


SEVEN WONDERS OF THE WORLD
The Pyramids of Egypt
The Taj Mahal, India
The Great Wall of China
The Eiffel Tower
The Leaning Tower of Pisa
The Statue of Liberty
The Hanging Gardens of Babylon



There are 17 modern projects that are considered wonders by the Amercian Society of Civil Engineers The following is a list of these projects and their locations,


The Channel Tunnel
The Clock Tower (Big Ben) in London, England (Web Cam)
The CN Tower in Toronto, Canada
Eiffel Tower in Paris, France
The Empire State Building in New York City, USA
The Gateway Arch in St. Louis, USA
The Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, USA
The High Dam in Aswan, Egypt
Hoover Dam in Arizona/Nevada
Itaipu Dam in Brazil/Paraguay
Mount Rushmore National Memorial in South Dakota
The Panama Canal
The Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
The Statue of Cristo Redentor in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
The Statue of Liberty
The Suez Canal in Egypt
The Sydney Opera House in Australia


Abu Simbel Temple in Egypt
Angkor Wat in Cambodia
The Aztec Temple in Tenochtitlan (Mexico City), Mexico
The Banaue Rice Terraces in the Philippines
Borobudur Temple in Indonesia
The Colosseum in Rome, Italy
The Great Wall of China
The Inca city of Machu Picchu, Peru
The Leaning Tower of Pisa, Italy
The Mayan Temples of Tikal in Northern Guatemala
The Moai Statues in Rapa Nui (Easter Island), Chile
Mont-Saint-Michel in Normandy, France
The Throne Hall of Persepolis in Iran
The Parthenon in Athens, Greece
Petra, the rock-carved city in Jordan
The Shwedagon Pagoda in Myanmar
Stonehenge in England
Taj Mahal in Agra, India
The Temple of the Inscriptions in Palenque, Mexico




Just a few i found why i was board right now looking up a few dif sites lol. IF there are any u want to add.

 

[poser002]

One other thing not sure how u are doung the combat systme but just wanted to float an idea out. Is it still going to be the basic setup? One unit attacks at a time? Or will it be everyone in that sq attacks at the same time. So if u have 6 units in one tile all 6 units will attack. If this is not the case maybe u could really up the units. Such as make it that 1 unit is like making 10 units in one. I belive that a unit is liek a sq. A sq just dont attack in a group of 3 and are easyly killed but they move in groups of 12-24. could make it that they do more dmg but they cost 6 times as much. So 12 times as good as a single unit now in gme but costs 6 times more in money and time to build. This would even things out a bit u think?

 

[maxpublic]

I'm not exactly sure what you folks are shooting for here. Are you just trying to strectch out the game, but leave the ratio of time spent in each era the same? In that case changing GameSpeedInfo will do this, for the most part - depending on what changes you make to city growth, specialists, and buildings, of course.

Or are you trying to make each era relatively equal in length? That can be done, but not with GameSpeedInfo. I know, because this is what I was working for; the same number of turns in each era. In this case you leave GameSpeedInfo alone and modify the point costs of the techs directly, in rough accordance with the ratios I posted (much) earlier in this thread. The actual years per turn is irrelevent - you can adjust them to anything you like, down to months in the Modern Era if that's what you want.

I want to point out here that even if you make each era have the same number of turns, the player *will not* spend as much time in each era. As the eras progress there's more to do - you have more cities, more units, more tech, more buildings, more choices. So Ancient turns fly by pretty quickly, but by the time you get to the Industrial Era you might be spending up to several minutes of time on each turn - or more, if you're in a war. It's not only the number of turns that determine how long each era lasts, but the time you spend on those turns.

Also, in reference to the comment that a defense of +225% makes cities unbreakable: that just ain't so. In my own mod walls and castles both gave +50% to defense; all infantry got a basic +25% when defending in cities, integral to their unit; culture, of course, can give up to +100%; and I removed all artillery units from the game. This did nothing to stop me from taking cities at will. What it did do is make the process much more costly; it slowed me down, sure, but that's kinda the point. Otherwise I would've conquered the entire world before I left the Classical Era. Instead of just diving into war I spent a good deal of time and energy building up a very large army - well, actually two: one to attack, and one to defend against the inevitable counterattacks. When every infantry unit has 4 mps, all the cav has 6, and everyone can use everyone else's roads you really, really have to lock your borders down tight if you don't want enemy raiding forces blowing all of your towns and other improvements to smithereens.

Max

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

Okay that was VERY ugly.

Well .... it wasn't really all that ugly actually.

Initial planning documents can be really ugly but they can also be extremely useful. In many respects, I think that we now need to "consolidate" our progress with this project insofar as:

1. we need to compile preliminary checklists for ALL our techs and buildings according to era (Good start )
2. when the initial drafts of these checklists are completed, we then need to see how balanced the various eras are

This will be a painfully slow and labour intensive process .... but imho this "bookkeeping" exercise is essential. Indeed, we will have to repeat it every couple of weeks .... but a firm foundation (i.e. a well-laid out initial series of lists) will make these repeats progressively more simple.

 

[Son of Moose]

Finarfin

Regardless, I'm interested in whatever you do with this as it is a worthy project and I am sure I will enjoy the results in whatever form they take.

Thank you!!

 

[Son of Moose]

Brancaleone

Welcome to this thread!!

[How many new nations, techs, improvements and wonders will this mod have? /QUOTE]

Possibly no new nations .... although (hopefully) the LITTLE mod will be compatible with the host of new nations appearing in this forum.

Techs .... MANY
Improvements .... hopefully a few
Wonders .... SEVERAL

Sorry for the inconclusive answer .... but we are still very much in the planning stage of this massive project.

 

[Son of Moose]

Poser002

THANK YOU for the comprehensive lists of Wonders!!

I actually think that we should seriously consider adding some of the (less well-known) Ancient era Wonders (that are currently missing from Vanilla Civ 4) into our mod. Maybe (just maybe) they might succeed in adding more purpose (and action) to the currently rather static and elongated Ancient era .... especially if we can link appropriate and balanced benefits to each of them.

This will (no doubt) present a major (but potentially extremely rewarding)challenge!!

Of course, the same applies to your lists of Modern era Wonders as well!!!

Please keep up the good work!!

 

[Son of Moose]

Poser002

Is it still going to be the basic setup?

Probably .... although I will leave it to my colleagues to decide.

The philosophy behind the LITTLE mod is to try to leave the basic gameplay of Vanilla Civ 4 as unchanged as possible while substantially prolonging the number of turns in the epic version of the game. In order to compensate for this massive increase in length, we will ADD a large number of new technologies and buildings (especially) in order to promote the same brisk gameplay afforded by the default epic gamespeed.

Sure .... the end result will be our vision for a massively expanded version of Civ 4. However, hopefully, most of the basic gameplay features will be left untouched or (where necessary) balanced to reflect the seven (or so) fold increase in the length of the game.

 

[Son of Moose]

Maxpublic

Also, in reference to the comment that a defense of +225% makes cities unbreakable: that just ain't so. In my own mod walls and castles both gave +50% to defense; all infantry got a basic +25% when defending in cities, integral to their unit; culture, of course, can give up to +100%; and I removed all artillery units from the game. This did nothing to stop me from taking cities at will. What it did do is make the process much more costly; it slowed me down, sure, but that's kinda the point. Otherwise I would've conquered the entire world before I left the Classical Era. Instead of just diving into war I spent a good deal of time and energy building up a very large army - well, actually two: one to attack, and one to defend against the inevitable counterattacks.

Now this is a most interesting observation!!

This is exactly the point I was trying to (somewhat clumsily) raise last night (my time). I just feel that the process of attempting to capture an enemy city should represent a major (and inevitably extremely costly) exercise (unless, of course, ones forces are overwhelmingly superior) and that success should most frequently be associated with a fair number of fatalities.

After all, this would seem to be somewhat more realistic and potentially afford a better balance for a severely prolonged version of the game. (Maybe somehow (through this concept), there should be a corresponding seven-fold increase in the length of time that it takes to capture a major enemy city?).

However, I am more than willing to bow to other people's opinions in this fairly complex (but most important) matter .... as I would hate to see people complain that the military model was now unsustainable.

 

[Son of Moose]

Maxpublic

I want to point out here that even if you make each era have the same number of turns, the player *will not* spend as much time in each era. As the eras progress there's more to do - you have more cities, more units, more tech, more buildings, more choices. So Ancient turns fly by pretty quickly, but by the time you get to the Industrial Era you might be spending up to several minutes of time on each turn - or more, if you're in a war. It's not only the number of turns that determine how long each era lasts, but the time you spend on those turns.

Now this is an EXTREMELY RELEVANT observation!!

All Civ games do (almost invariably) tend to follow an exponential growth curve with respect to the amount of turn-related activity required as the game progresses. (I will leave it to the mathematicians to further discuss the exact nature of this growth curve ).

However, as somewhat of a builder myself, this might at least partially explain why the Modern era seems (from my own personal perspective) to last disproportionally longer than the other preceeding eras. More cities generally require more management, etc .... not that I am complaining.

So (who knows) maybe the prolonged Ancient era might not seem all that long under these circumstances.

 

[poser002]

The game at the start seems to go slower because u have less citys and ur waitting to get that next tech. But it goes alot faster because really u dont do much. I would say for the first 200 turns in the game are mostly just click the turn button. I would say for the first 200 turns right now in game u really play about 15 mins lol. build ur first city build maybe 2 settlers in this time 2 workers and the rest is buildings if u want to get a wonder first. Then it is wait and go lol. After that the game gets going and u start to build up troops and start to take over area dn move ur citys out and take up as much land as u can befor the ai starts to suck it up lol.

 

[Son of Moose]

Poser002

The game at the start seems to go slower because u have less citys and ur waitting to get that next tech. But it goes alot faster because really u dont do much. I would say for the first 200 turns in the game are mostly just click the turn button. I would say for the first 200 turns right now in game u really play about 15 mins lol.

Yes .... upon deeper reflection, this is indeed a highly accurate observation regarding the start of ANY Civ game. By definition, one has to start out extremely slowly from NOTHING before painstakingly developing ones first city.

This imho is actually fairly profound stuff if one takes the time to consider the full historical implications of what is really happening during these somewhat prolonged opening moves .... simply put, it is "The Birth of your Nation". In many respects, it is these initial seemingly wasted (but really crucial) moves that should somehow be able to exercise a far more profound multiplier effect upon the subsequent development of ones Nation (Civilization).

Therefore, no matter how many turns (within reason) one has in the game or in what year one decides to start the game, the beginning phases will always be (by necessity) somewhat slow in nature. In many respects, therefore, this type of slow progress would seem appropriate for (say) 8000 BC.

However, the BIG QUESTION seems to be whether we can fully justify (from the gameplay perspective) so many turns in the Ancient era from (say) 8000 BC onwards. This topic is currently being fairly vigorously debated in this thread. I must admit that (as somewhat of a builder) I tend to have a rather high boredom threashold and don't mind a slow but steady build up during this (admittedly) fairly long period of the game (which does reflect an equally long period of human history where our ancestors possibly spent most of the time battling Barbarians).

The ONE HUNDRED TURN DEMO also confirms your observation .... as I have found it virtually impossible to build anything particularly worthy (like the basis for a mighty Dravidian Empire) during this time. Imho, this is very appropriate for the game but highly frustrating for the demo.

 

[poser002]

Right now in the game i like from about 1000bc to 1000ad. I spend most the time building up trying to get all teh wonders in one city, that is never easy lol but i get about 6 or so in that time lol. or i lose out by 2 turns on some lol. I like to take over other empires but to me that is not the fun part. I like to micro mange in games. I love the lil details. IT is what makes me love ceaser and those games is all the lil details. Also the empire trading. I wish civ had more of a major trade market. Such as in ceaser u have the huge chat of what can be sold and imported and traded. To me civ would be so much fun if u needed so many units of stay marble,stone,copper,iron steel so on to make buildings. This would really be good thing for the wonders. If u think about it the wonders needed so much stone and the rome buildings needed marble and stone to build and the great wall of china do u need to ask? lol. Maybe civ 5 will bring this part of micro management. Would also be a great way to make money and bring the game in to the real world on the market of world trade.

 

[Son of Moose]

Poser002

Right now in the game i like from about 1000bc to 1000ad. I spend most the time building up

Yes .... that would seem to represent the best time for ones major expansion in Vanilla Civ 4. Imho, it would be great to be able to really prolong (at least turn-wise) this period of building and expansion in this mod.

I like to micro mange in games. I love the lil details.

The same here .... I will certainly not automate those idiotic workers!! Indeed, I think that most of the people involved in actively discussing and promoting this mod (such as FexFX and Maxpublic) seem to share this philosophy. After all, as you so correctly state, it is the small details that succeed in adding to the wondrous complexity and scope of this game (and the classic CB games).

needed so many units of stay marble,stone,copper,iron steel so on to make buildings

Maybe THIS might somehow be incorporated into our mod .... especially as a way of adding yet a further challenge (a greater level of exploration and/or diplomacy) in the somewhat underwhelming (to some) Ancient era.

Maybe civ 5 will bring this part of micro management.

Maybe .... but I wouldn't bet on it. It would seem (for better or for worse) that micromanagement is seemingly being eliminated from most games.

 

[FexFX]

I'm not exactly sure what you folks are shooting for here. Are you just trying to strectch out the game, but leave the ratio of time spent in each era the same? In that case changing GameSpeedInfo will do this, for the most part - depending on what changes you make to city growth, specialists, and buildings, of course.

Or are you trying to make each era relatively equal in length? That can be done, but not with GameSpeedInfo. I know, because this is what I was working for; the same number of turns in each era. In this case you leave GameSpeedInfo alone and modify the point costs of the techs directly, in rough accordance with the ratios I posted (much) earlier in this thread. The actual years per turn is irrelevent - you can adjust them to anything you like, down to months in the Modern Era if that's what you want.

I want to point out here that even if you make each era have the same number of turns, the player *will not* spend as much time in each era. As the eras progress there's more to do - you have more cities, more units, more tech, more buildings, more choices. So Ancient turns fly by pretty quickly, but by the time you get to the Industrial Era you might be spending up to several minutes of time on each turn - or more, if you're in a war. It's not only the number of turns that determine how long each era lasts, but the time you spend on those turns.

Also, in reference to the comment that a defense of +225% makes cities unbreakable: that just ain't so. In my own mod walls and castles both gave +50% to defense; all infantry got a basic +25% when defending in cities, integral to their unit; culture, of course, can give up to +100%; and I removed all artillery units from the game. This did nothing to stop me from taking cities at will. What it did do is make the process much more costly; it slowed me down, sure, but that's kinda the point. Otherwise I would've conquered the entire world before I left the Classical Era. Instead of just diving into war I spent a good deal of time and energy building up a very large army - well, actually two: one to attack, and one to defend against the inevitable counterattacks. When every infantry unit has 4 mps, all the cav has 6, and everyone can use everyone else's roads you really, really have to lock your borders down tight if you don't want enemy raiding forces blowing all of your towns and other improvements to smithereens.

Max

Actually the 225% thing does NOTHING if you have a decent stack of catapults...The discussion was over whether to increase defence or change bombard.

I voted to change bombard becuase if you remove bombard from the equation defenses are already adequate. It should never be possible to be well enough defended to utterly thwart all attacks. It should just be possible to make them work for it.

we are trying ot stretch it AND give a decent number of turns in each era. I'd like a sense of balance. But you are correct each era will feel longer than the last because o fhte increasing number of options each turn.

 

[FexFX]

So, Son Of Moose,
Do we have any idea who is going to be doing what for this mod?
Who will be doing the actual work?
What skills are you brining to the table?
Can you do 3d? How about 2d? Are you any good with Python or XML?

Myself I am good with 2d and 3d and I havepicked up XML easily. Python does not look all that hard to learn but right now my level of knowledge is somewhat limited.

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

Do we have any idea who is going to be doing what for this mod?
Who will be doing the actual work?

Yes .... this is the KEY question and one that I have been dreading for a while.

Unfortunately (as I might well have mentioned in my initial post), I am neither a graphics artist nor a programmer but rather a committed fan with a particular vision for Civ 4. Indeed, this is why I titled this thread a "Possible collaborative project". Thankfully, this vision does appear to be shared by several people who have visited and contributed to this thread.

Your questions are indeed most pertinent as we will clearly need several volunteers (collaborators) with expertise in programming and especially graphics (you seem to be pretty good at both ) .... as it will be essential for all the newly proposed buildings in the LITTLE mod to be totally compatible with those appearing in Vanilla Civ 4. (No copying of RoN or AoE buildings as happened in the DYP/RAR mod ).

So where does this leave us?

I would imagine that it is essential for us to find (at least) a couple of people with programming and graphics skills who will be prepared to lend us a hand. Certainly StanKarp (who is a programmer) managed to establish a highly competant team in order to create the AoM mod for CTP2. Hopefully we can yet manage to do the same .... but how can we best do this?

My first appeal:

Do any of our contributors have the necessary skills to advance this mod?

This might represent a suitable beginning. Do you have any definite ideas in this regard?