Possible collaborative project: Truly Heroic Mod

[FexFX]

I was afraid of this also...
So far, although we have had many offered ideas, we have had no offers of help on the design and programming side of things.
Heh...
So far then this is my mod which happens to be taking suggestions from others.

I can do the whole mod by myself if need be, but it'll end up with my name all over it.

The working title I was using before this conversation began was FexFX - MORE.
Just MORE.
More turns, More techs, More buildings...etc

Looks like I may be building MORE by myself...
Ah well that's how I originally figured it would go, I just thought we'd attract some help.

(which I would still welcome)


Oh, and something which was pointed out to me recently about my FexFX - Bigger & Longer mod...Great People run out of names WAY before 1000 turns...You end up seeing Enrico Ferme being born in 750ad...

So to add to our list we need about 6 or 7 times as many great people to prevent hitting generics before the year 1000BC!

Its an easy task to implement, but an oversight until today!

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

So far, although we have had many offered ideas, we have had no offers of help on the design and programming side of things.

Yes .... although I am most grateful for all the well-intentioned and often extremely useful suggestions and ideas, I think that we now desperately need to try to make some definitive progress with this mod.

As they say (somewhat unkindly) .... talk is cheap!!!

We really do need to establish a team .... otherwise (as you say) we might as well revert to your curently existing mod.

I can do the whole mod by myself if need be, but it'll end up with my name all over it.

From a strictly personal perspective that would be fine and proper (dulce et decorum est) .... as my own personal Civ 4-related dream is to be able to play a really expanded version of Vanilla Civ 4. You definitely seem to be going in the right direction in this regard.

More turns, More techs, More buildings...etc

Cool .... especially the buildings!!

Great People run out of names WAY before 1000 turns...You end up seeing Enrico Ferme being born in 750ad...

I actually saw that one!!!

Again, from a personal perspective, I don't really mind them being numerically ordered .... although a suitably long list of names would be better. However, in the greater scheme of things, I guess that this is a comparatively small (but still fairly noteworthy) problem.

To be continued ....

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX:

So where do we go from here?

For what it is worth, I would like to propose the following:

• Keep this thread going for (at least) the next few days to see whether we can obtain the services of some volunteers (i.e. WE ARE NOW ACTIVELY RECRUITING )
• Possibly consolidate (y)our progress by seeing exactly what you (we) do have wrt suggestions. This would seem to make good sense before you (we) get drowned in trivia.
• If we obtain no more volunteers, consider the possibility of merging this thread with your mod thread. Lets see which thread is dominant .... I certainly have no great desire to maintain this thread as an ego boost (or whatever) .... it can be allowed to quietly die once it has outlived its purpose.

Hopefully the above suggestions were not too melodramatic .... I just think that we now need to be PRACTICAL in our approach to a potentially MASSIVE project.

 

[Shqype]

I offered my coding assisstance. Just tell me what is needed and I will take care of it.

 

[Son of Moose]

Shqype

Yes .... I hoped that you were still available!!!

Now we have a bona fide programmer (you) and a graphics man (FexFX) at our disposal.

I would imagine that your skills will be needed pretty soon now .... especially when we have managed to consolidate all the ideas appearing in this long thread.

I think our major outstanding need is possibly for more graphics artists.


FexFX

Would you feel happy trying to mod existing Vanilla Civ 4 structures in order to create ALL the newly proposed buildings/structures?

Or would you like a few helpers? (From my admittedly extremely limited knowledge of graphics, I know that they are EXTREMELY labour intensive).

 

[maxpublic]

It should never be possible to be well enough defended to utterly thwart all attacks. It should just be possible to make them work for it.

That was actually my point. Remember, I removed all artillery - including catapults. AND increased defense bonuses AND gave infantry a base +25% defense in cities. The enemy defenses were by no means unbreakable - I broke them, repeatedly. It just required more planning and more units, and ended up costing more. It was also a slower process since I couldn't just up and wipe out a neighbor in a single war.

If I hadn't have done this I'd've won the game long before reaching the Industrial Era, which would've defeated the point of making a long mod in the first place. As is it required several carefully-planned wars to eliminate each player.

Civ is already an easy game to beat. Long games favor a player of the AI. Improving defenses worked more in the AI's favor than in mine since, as a human, I was better able to defend my territory anyway. Removing the artillery really helped the AI, as players are far, far better at using it effectively than the AI will ever be.

Although the AI proved particularly adept at making breakthroughs (or landings) in my territory and burning improvements to the ground. A lesson I learned early and worked continually to thwart (although this won't be a problem in your game unless you increase movement allowances and allow everyone to use enemy roads by default, like I did).

Max

 

[Mylon]

I took note of this err, little thread here and thought I'd drop by. My mod aims to do a lot of what some of the people here are asking for. there isn't quite any _epic_ game speed just yet (the current epic can fairly long, given the tech changes), but I have so far included 20 new buildings (2 of which I didn't count due to their irrelevance) and modified several of the exsting entries to be a bit more multi-purpose. Cities have been made to be bigger with more food, which in turn means they're growing throughout the entire game. I've also added 2 new technologies with ideas for more written down.

The mod also includes some different gameplay mechanics, including Inquisitors and travelling performers and a whole new cultural model. I notice that FexFX is planning something very similar and I suggest we put our heads together on this one.

I think I've already proven myself a capable programmer and XML editor, and certainly full of ideas, though the quality of those may be questionable. I encourage people interested in this thread to look into my mod and what it has to offer. Also, feel free to suggest ideas for new buildings, new technologies, or even new gameplay mechanics.

 

[Son of Moose]

Maxpublic

It just required more planning and more units, and ended up costing more. It was also a slower process since I couldn't just up and wipe out a neighbor in a single war.

Without unnecessarily prolonging this interesting debate (or to be seen taking sides), I think that this is the desired rationale for conducting warfare in an ultra-epic version of Civ 4.

However, we still need to decide how best to achieve this end goal.

 

[maxpublic]

However, we still need to decide how best to achieve this end goal.

Whatever you do, don't give the player extra bells and whistles. The AI can't even handle the rock-paper-scissors approach of the vanilla game; stacking anything else on top of that only skews the advantage in the direction of the player, which'll make the game even easier than it already is.

What I'm saying is this: anything beyond basic attack/defend is also pretty much outside the capabilities of the AI. So that means any 'cool' thing you add is going to be used by the player 95% of the time, and by the AI 5% of the time (probably by accident). Long games already favor the player, so the last thing you want is to hand a human an even bigger advantage.

Max

 

[Son of Moose]

Mylon

We are truly honoured by your visit to our humble thread!!!

I have been following your mod!!!

I notice that FexFX is planning something very similar and I suggest we put our heads together on this one.

To be absolutely honest, I have long thought that it would be optimal if all modders interested in creating an ultra-epic mod featuring additional material (such as new techs, buildings, units, etc.) were to effectively combine (pool) their talents into the creation of a single truly ambitious project.

How can we best achieve this goal:

Should we try to somehow combine some of the ideas proposed here with those currently existing in your mod and/or FexFx's equally popular mod?

Should we (within reason) try to build up a new all-encompassing mod featuring the proposed number of turns suggested for the LITTLE mod as well as the "best" (most applicable to a truly epic game) ideas from the Mylon mod and the FexFX expanded mod?

I don't wish to re-invent the wheel (as it is a particularly wasteful exercise) but there might need to be some type of re-arrangement of focus in order to find clear common ground.

What do our dedicated supporters feel?

 

[Son of Moose]

Maxpublic

Whatever you do, don't give the player extra bells and whistles.

Alas I am not too sure that your wish will be granted .... certainly FexFX and Mylon (as well as me) strongly feel that there will be a need for new buildings and techs in order to keep the ultra-epic game entertaining.

However, suprisingly enough, I am against too many other changes involving the basic gameplay .... that are not proved essential in order to accomodate the massively increased game length.

 

[maxpublic]

Alas I am not too sure that your wish will be granted .... certainly FexFX and Mylon (as well as me) strongly feel that there will be a need for new buildings and techs in order to keep the ultra-epic game entertaining.

More explicitly, I meant extra bells and whistles in combat. The AI isn't capable of employing them effectively. Any additions you make to combat apart from the automatic ones (e.g., new buildings give more experience to all units) will only favor the player.

Max

 

[Son of Moose]

Maxpublic

I meant extra bells and whistles in combat

Okay .... then you might well possibly get your wish.

(Unfortunately I am not a great expert in the military aspects of this game .... therefore I will most certainly leave these decisions to others who know a lot more about these things. ).

 

[FexFX]

More explicitly, I meant extra bells and whistles in combat. The AI isn't capable of employing them effectively. Any additions you make to combat apart from the automatic ones (e.g., new buildings give more experience to all units) will only favor the player.

Max

I understand what he means.
The changes I plan to make to combat are all relatively minor and will try to foil the idea of waffle-stomping the computer.

I think the key is making defenses that are less vulnerable to artillery without nerfing artillery completely...
and then from there perhaps an increase in defense bonuses.

The basic mechanices will remain the same.

 

[FexFX]

I took note of this err, little thread here and thought I'd drop by. My mod aims to do a lot of what some of the people here are asking for. there isn't quite any _epic_ game speed just yet (the current epic can fairly long, given the tech changes), but I have so far included 20 new buildings (2 of which I didn't count due to their irrelevance) and modified several of the exsting entries to be a bit more multi-purpose. Cities have been made to be bigger with more food, which in turn means they're growing throughout the entire game. I've also added 2 new technologies with ideas for more written down.

The mod also includes some different gameplay mechanics, including Inquisitors and travelling performers and a whole new cultural model. I notice that FexFX is planning something very similar and I suggest we put our heads together on this one.

I think I've already proven myself a capable programmer and XML editor, and certainly full of ideas, though the quality of those may be questionable. I encourage people interested in this thread to look into my mod and what it has to offer. Also, feel free to suggest ideas for new buildings, new technologies, or even new gameplay mechanics.

Your work has been most impressive!

I am hoping to extend the existing concepts and rebalance a few things while maintaining the core play of Civ IV.

The only "new" concept I have seen out there that I definitely think should be included is the idea of a Military Great Person...which really just gives more variety without adding a new concept.

The inquisitor and Traveling Performer concepts are very intriguing, but as to a new cultureal model...I am not sure if it belongs in this mod or not. as I said I am not looking to change the core gameplay just expand it. More, More, More.

One idea I have toyed with and have not quite rejected yet is larger city radius after some large population number is reached.

I do not know how to implement this yet, and it may well be a function of Culture and not Population, but I think one raduis larger would be an interesting development in the late game. I am still pondering whether or not this belongs. I know larger population sizes are inevitable with this scope and scale however.

 

[FexFX]

I offered my coding assisstance. Just tell me what is needed and I will take care of it.

Well what would be truely great would be a way to switch calendars after a certain year. To go from Years to Seasons or Months...

Because that is really the only way to properly extend the modern era without breaking the 2050 barrier.

Is this possible pre-SDK?

 

[maxpublic]

One idea I have toyed with and have not quite rejected yet is larger city radius after some large population number is reached.

If you can figure out how to change the city radius from a 'fat cross' to a square (or perhaps it should be called a megasquare?), this would be a great development. The ability to plot your cities without gaps is something players have been looking for since Civ 1.

Max

 

[FexFX]

At this time I feel ready to begin adding techs to the Ancient era...actual implementation.

the early techs are going to be the most complex as they involve core changes to the early game.
For example before you learn the Fishing Tech, Sea tiles offer no food. Before you learn Carpentry Forests offer no production bonus...

So, these first few techs are going to involve editing a LARGE number of files including the base behavior of tiles and tile bonuses!

 

[FexFX]

If you can figure out how to change the city radius from a 'fat cross' to a square (or perhaps it should be called a megasquare?), this would be a great development. The ability to plot your cities without gaps is something players have been looking for since Civ 1.

Max

It is certainly something to think about.

The thing is I remember how CTP handled it, and things were a tad overbalanced as a result...I'd like to avoid that...

 

[maxpublic]

One other thing I just thought of: barbarians. In a long game, if you increase build times to stretch them out barbarians become much more threatening than they are in stock civ. A player can handle this (although they're a real pain), but the AI has problems. In my first run - before I changed the way barbarians are generated - about half the AI civs were overrun by barbarians before we left the Ancient era.

Max