possible fix for tank vs. spearman...

[brody]

I thought of a new HP system to make it harder for spearmen to take down a tank. Multiply everything by 4: conscript = 8HP, regular=12, veteran=16, and elite=20. This makes it much harder for obselete units to win a fight. Why? The chances of a spearman getting lucky 3 times (killing regular tank or wounded vet/elite tank) are not that low. On the other hand, getting lucky 12 times is very unlikely.

This requires other changes, however. You need to make all bombard units more powerful. I adjusted their rate of fire, and in some cases their bombard strength. This makes it so that an artillery unit, instead of hitting for 1 or 2 hps, can hit for 4-8, which is equivalent damage in my x4 system.

This system also makes bombard units more useful. Knock a ship down to 1 HP in the current system and send a 4 HP (veteran) ship after him. There's a small chance the wounded ship will win, but it's still an okay chance. In my system, knock him down to 1 HP and send a 16HP (also veteran) ship, and your chances of losing are extremely small.

The semi-rare occurances that annoy people so much (spearman vs. tank being the most popular) become extremely rare. I use it and I find it works well. If only the AI used artillery more, then I wouldn't feel like this system makes things too easy for the player...

And if you want an even better system, do this: CON=8, REG=11, VET=15, ELITE=20. This makes a bigger jump at each level (+3 from CON to REG, +4 to VET, and +5 to ELITE), making elite units truly elite.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Just a few thoughts....

What would happen if you have an elite swordsman (20 HP) vs lets say a conscript infantry (drafted) that has 4HP?

Edit: Oops, read it wrong, a conscript has 8 HP with your method, I guess that wouldn't be so bad then.

How does the military advisor rank the bombard units under this method? In one game I multiplied the bombardment of all units by 5, and when I was running around with cossacks, my advisor said "The Persians have the catapult !" (even though they had knights, pikeman, musketman, etc.). And the AI seemed to put a bigger priority on building these units than normal. I think about a third of it's military was catapults/cannons, etc.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

your basic thought is right: by multiplying HP the RNG doesn`t change, but a "strange" string of 4 improbable results will not make you loose the fight.

Problems:

civ can`t display more than 4 * 5 HP (I think) = 4 elite units in army

battles take a lot longer. Solution: uncheck "animate battles" - but this means that you`ll sometimes miss who wins, and you won`t see bombings and so on.......

for these reasons I`ve experimented with tripling HP. This gave good results, and improbable things still happened occasionally which I like since it is realistic. Also, you can still see a difference in the displayed HP between regular/veteran/elite units.


As for bombard: the AI hardly uses bombard units offensively. With tripled HP + bombard it started to use them without overestimating them. So this works out very well.

 

[TheNiceOne]

...or instead of modding the game, you can use your imagination, and imagine that the spearmen army isn't really spearmen, but rather the most backwards type of army of that era.

This is a better solution for several reasons:

1) It removes the really unrealistic apect of CIV3 - the fact that a nation fields an army of spearmen in the modern age. OK - it's still called spearmen - but you and I know that they are actually men with rifles and molotov coctails

2) You can be happy while playing the game unmodded (fine for GOTM etc) because now it makes sense that undeveloped infantry (spearmen) stops tanks once in a while (as with Soviet tanks in Afghanistan).

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne
...or instead of modding the game, you can use your imagination, and imagine that the spearmen army isn't really spearmen, but rather the most backwards type of army of that era.

This is a better solution for several reasons:

1) It removes the really unrealistic apect of CIV3 - the fact that a nation fields an army of spearmen in the modern age. OK - it's still called spearmen - but you and I know that they are actually men with rifles and molotov coctails

2) You can be happy while playing the game unmodded (fine for GOTM etc) because now it makes sense that undeveloped infantry (spearmen) stops tanks once in a while (as with Soviet tanks in Afghanistan).

Modern times = Riflemen; this pretty much explains Afghanistan.....

 

[Razorwing]

Brody, wouldn't an army of four elite tanks under your system have a hit point bar higher than the screen?

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne
...or instead of modding the game, you can use your imagination, and imagine that the spearmen army isn't really spearmen, but rather the most backwards type of army of that era.

Yes, that would be a better solution. Just change their clothes, similar to how the workers change with each age.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

In my mods I increased hit points at each level (elite etc) by one...and it helps...

But I completely agree that using your imagination is the best way of dealing with the anomaly.

Those who portray the problem as much worse than it is should be men enough that when multiplayer comes round to take on my (lets say) 5 tanks with (lets be fair) 3 times the number spearmen units (15) and see who will triumph!

 

[Rustus Maximus]

Well, why bother upgrading your military at all...think of all the time and money that you'll save instead of researching new techs! Whyyy, we'll just all build nothing but spearmen and galleys and then "use our imaginations" as we journey through the ages...no, no that's not a spearmen army that's an army of M-1 Abrams! Yeeeaaah, that's the ticket!

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Those who portray the problem as much worse than it is should be men enough that when multiplayer comes round to take on my (lets say) 5 tanks with (lets be fair) 3 times the number spearmen units (15) and see who will triumph!

I have no doubt who will triumph, the point is how decisively you should triumph. I've got news for you, if you place, say, 10 M-1 Abrams against, say, 15,000 ancient spearmen...the spearmen (the ones who stick around to fight) will be wiped out with no losses to your tanks, I'll guarantee it. As far as when multiplayer comes around, I doubt you'll ever be faced with that situation, which brings us to one of the big problems, the AI doesn't upgrade its units the way it should. What we are dealing with here is an attempt to make it easier for civs that fall behind in tech or fall behind in upgrading their units to stay in the game. It's a way to compensate for weak AI.

Originally posted by TheNiceOne
...or instead of modding the game, you can use your imagination, and imagine that the spearmen army isn't really spearmen, but rather the most backwards type of army of that era.

That already exists, it's called a Conscript unit.

Units should have their stats, not just their hit points, adjusted for their experience level and that would better help reflect the "untrained infantry" concept you are talking about.

You can try to rationalize the screwy combat system in Civ 3 however you want to...it's still less realistic than Civ 2. "Bad Firaxis! BAD!"

 

[Badluck]

what is 10 M-1 Abrams

well anyway i am pretty sure they will run out of gas or amo before killing those 15,000 spearmen if the spearmen are bright enough not to hang around in a small perimeter.

 

[royfurr]

Originally posted by Killer
...
for these reasons I`ve experimented with tripling HP. This gave good results, and improbable things still happened occasionally which I like since it is realistic. Also, you can still see a difference in the displayed HP between regular/veteran/elite units.


As for bombard: the AI hardly uses bombard units offensively. With tripled HP + bombard it started to use them without overestimating them. So this works out very well.

Killer, when you tripled HP what changes, if any, did you make to bombardment strength? Any changes to bombardment RATE? How'd it work?

Me, I have made much smaller changes of these types but also done other things. I've added +1 to conscript hit point levels, and +2 to each of the other experience levels. Mostly left bombardment strength alone, although incrased rate of fire by one for Arty and Radar Arty. (thinking of doing that now for cannon as well.) I've given a "zero range" bombardemnt strength to most firepower based ranged units (basically riflemen up)- a low value- usually 1 or 2, a 3 for Mech Inf and Modern Armor. This represents the fact that modern units ranged weapons can devastate an attacker before they close to melee range. It's strictly defensive as it is a zero range, only gets used when the enemy tries to enter the tile the unit occupies. (It represents the effect of modern automatic small caliber (0.50 or less) weapons- the WWI machine gun effect, you might say.) But its not an overwhelming effect so lower tech units are NOT always instantly wiped out by more modern units. Finally, I have boosted (attack *and* defense equally) unit parameters for modern units +25% of original for late middle ages, +50 of original for industrial and modern era. They retain the same odds amonst themselfs as before, but now are boosted against ancient units. An ancient unit can still pillage and cause damage, but its odds of killing a more modern unit are decreased- although not completely to zero.

I also increased some units cost as well- warfare IS very very expensive, in $$$, blood, and good things [like tech advance, culture building] that are NOT happening as a result. SO, MORE costs for the units.

I have made much more major overhauls in Naval units, but thats another matter- thats the Killer Galley syndrome, not the killer spearman.

Those of you who want to "image" spearmen are poorly armed grunts, go ahead. Enjoy civ. For me, I am glad there is an editor and I can make changes. This way we can both enjoy it. One of the nice things about this game is that its playable both ways- and I get more pleasure out of it this way. You enjoy what you find the most pleasing. But don't put someone down for not wanting to play your way. At the same time, I will not put you down for your imagination.

Civ on.

 

[NY Hoya]

Good post, Rustus Maximus. We shouldn't have to use our imaginations to come up with ridiculous justifications for a flawed combat system. Spearmen are just that, men with spears. They don't have rifles, they don't have explosives, they have spears and that's it. It costs the same amount to build a spearman in 1700 AD as it does in 2000 BC, why should anyone assume that they now use more advanced technology?

Badluck, the M-1 Abrams is modern tank

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by NY Hoya
Spearmen are just that, men with spears. They don't have rifles, they don't have explosives, they have spears and that's it.

That is incorrect. They have fire. Fire is a sufficient weapon, when combined with subterfuge and the will to fight, to have a strategic effect on the battlefield.

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Badluck
what is 10 M-1 Abrams

well anyway i am pretty sure they will run out of gas or amo before killing those 15,000 spearmen if the spearmen are bright enough not to hang around in a small perimeter.

The Abrams is a modern tank, equivalent to the advanced armor in Civ3, not an ordinary tank.

Assuming the leadership of both armies are not complete idiots, the spearmen will run and hide, and the tanks will hunker down to protect their supply lines and wait for infantry support. The long-term morale of the troops may be decisive.

 

[simwiz2]

"That is incorrect. They have fire. Fire is a sufficient weapon, when combined with subterfuge and the will to fight, to have a strategic effect on the battlefield."

You mean they might start using FIRE spears!?!?!? Oh no, they will melt the steel, what do we do?!?!?!

I always knew fire spears were better than tank shells.

 

[brody]

this was not meant as a flame! I like the game, I was just saying that for those of us who don't like the potential anomalies, this can help out! I don't think one way is better than another, it's just what you like to play.

Bamspeedy: Yes, 8hp tank vs. 20hp spearman could still be a problem, but if you think about it, tanks commanded by utter morons (conscripts have no real battle experience, and probably no training even) against spearmen who know all there is to know about battle... well, it makes sense to me that there's a small chance those spearmen could overtake the tanks more by intelligence than firepower. Digging pits, luring the tanks into unhospitable terrain, actually getting inside a tank, etc. This is unrealistic, but easier to explain in 8 vs 20 hps than in current system where the same thing would require only TWO lucky rolls of the dice. (2hp conscript tank is not hard to kill...)

Killer: Speed of battles is no big deal to me, so I never much cared. As for too high a HP bar, I don't much care about that either. Yeah, armies are harder to see for HPs, but they seem to go down (percentagewise) correctly.

royfurr: I like your idea of bonuses per age, I may add that in and take out some of the HP bonuses... that makes sense. But still, it doesn't take much to get 3 lucky rolls (conscript with a +1 in your system has 3 HP)... I think I may go for x3 and some bonuses per age. I may increase bombard strength and cut back a little on bombard rate, just so AI uses them more. But rate MUST be increased some to compensate for such high HP units.

 

[Rustus Maximus]

I know you didn't intend a flame brody, and you are on the right track as far as what needs to be done to fix the combat system, I just feel that neither you nor anyone else should have to mod the game to get what should be common sense combat results. Should these anomalies occur at all? Hey, anything can happen. Should they occur with the frequency they are occuring (and we are not just talking about spearmen and tanks here)? No.

FIRE spears...heh, heh, heh, heh

 

[simwiz2]

"2hp conscript tank is not hard to kill..."

How do you get a conscript tank? IIRC you can only draft riflemen, infantry, and mech inf, so isnt the worst tank you can have a regular?

 

[royfurr]

brody-

I was trying to not go for doubling or triling of hitpoints, as this is such a BIG change, and I fear the law of unintended consequences. Making smaller changes hopefully avoids these currently unseen probabilities. But then in order to get the effect I want (getting rid of large numbers of ananomlous reults, but retaining the chances of "out there" WTF's!!!? results {war is one of the most choiatic envionments that exists}, and preventing the game simply being a tech race for tanks etc), then, I have to add in other things since I don't double or triple HP. So you saw the list of other things that are all small, but add up it effect. I note that more then one person has said that tripling (or in some cases doubling) HP has solved the problem, but as I said, I am cautious in how I amend the game rules. Call me an incrementalists.

This is still an ongoing experiment for me, so I may change any or all of this down the road as I play more. Most of my play so far has been in the ancient to medieval era, and most of these changes effects take place later in history, so I have a ways to go.

At least this is something we can do something about. There are other things I get cranky about that we simply cannot do anything abouit, the most notable being Naval and Air warfare (ships being unsinkable by air) and of course, everyones favorite, corruption ... I can live with having to build the FP and lots of city improvements, but if the FP is on your home continent, then there is not much you can do on overseas expansion ... a little, but only a little, I don't care what some folks sneer about ones ability, your just not going to get more then a few shields out of each of those overseas cities ... and then at a great cost. Bah, gotta move on from THAT issue ...

Finally,
Rustus Maximus!! I agree with you, we SHOUDLDN'T have to do these kind of modifications, we paid infogames/Firaxis to do this for us ... but the reality of the marketplace and the situation at hand is that we do this, or live with a game that is not as good as it could be ... and at least we have the tools to solve a part of the problems we have. OH well, you have to play the hand your dealt, and I for one am glad that they DID produce the game, but if CIV 4 isn't better and better tested, it may well be the last game that I "automatically" buy on its release, from these folks. They have that one more chance. But again, to not sound like a whiner, I AM glad I bought the game. And I continue to play. But it could be better though ...

And modding can be kinda fun for game designer wanttabes ...

 

[simwiz2]

In my Combat Mod i doubled hp's, increased infantry/tanks by almost 100% and increased modern units by about 175%. Early gun units have about a 50% increase. And with my mod i have never had a spearman beat any unit with 8 or more attack (so cav or riflemen or above can safely attack old units) in my mod combat works great except artillery cant sink ships. oh well, hopefully they will put that in the editor someday.