Poterntial Mod of trait

[madscientist]

First off, what is SEC? (Secretive???)
Second, nice job with the balancing. I was looking forever for a IND/SEA leader. GLH itself would produce a free village!

If you put this up for download I'll definitely get it!

SEC is Secrative. I deliberately avoided the IND/SEA combo because I felt it was too abusive of teh Great LightHouse.

Once I work out the bugs, test it out, tinker a bit, maybe alter some buildings/military a tad, I probably will post it. I also need to find out where to post it and posting Mod etiiquette.

Like my early idea of the RPCs, I plan to show how easy Modding can be. You all know I am no computer genius here, and certainly no programmer.

I think I will call it "Mad's World"

 

[madscientist]

Does this mean you're going to go through and redo all the RPC challenges with the new traits?

Perhaps something like that. The RPC series will definitely end. But fear not I will be still posting things although not with the same frequency (so I say now). I have considered world building certain RPC-type situations as open challenges though, a chance for me to watch the world squirm a bit!

 

[madscientist]

I think Charismatic is too strong. Adding extra happy with the Coliseum gives really big happy caps early with only a few (cheap) buildings. It's already strong early game.

I always felt CHA was a well-balanced, medium trait. But perhaps the double speed Monument is too much. I think I will make the Braodcast double instead and alter the CRE trait a bit

Charlemagne will be a tough turtle to crack. +150% GG inside borders (do you still have the default +100% inside cultural borders that comes with the game?). Tough.

AT first I was confused, then I realized the IMP/PRO synergy here. Still, may not be that overpowered, certainly interesting. I like the addition to PRO but perhaps I need to reevaluate Charles' trait combos here. Good Point.

I still think Industrious could use a boost. I know boosting Ironworks is nice, but something else to help it out. Is giving +1 hammer to workshops too strong? The wonder bonus and forge bonus are big early game traits, and giving a hammer boost to workshops would certainly make it a late game menace.

After I did everything I sort of agree, IND needs just a tad more. Two chocies I see: 1) Add a free hammer or two to IND per city, similar to the CRE or SEC trait or 2) double speed of the levee thus discounting all of those hammer modifying buildings.

Alternatively, I have considered nixing the entire Wonder bonus, making World Wonders a Free for all but Giving IND a base +2 hammers/city or a 10% production boost. However, Spamming wonders with IND is a "FUN" part of the game and I am not sure I want to see that go.

Thinking of philosophic, I think you weakened it too much. The GPP bonus is good early, but only giving it cheap observatories and labs late I'm not sure balances it. Maybe having an observatory give a free specialist? That would certainly be a nice boost in the late game.

Perhaps. PHIL got a big boost in BTS with espionage (GSpies) and Corps. The observatory with a free specialist sounds intriguing but as I understand the TRAIT XML not easy to do (of course I am open to suggestions on HOW to do it). Perhaps what may be the best fix is to add 1 or 2 free beakers per city (Like CRE and SEC) and remove the discount Lab (which would be a BIG boost to Peter and his UB). I very much like lowering teh GP meter to 50%, so that likely stays.

Also remeber the discount on OXFORD, one of the strongest National Wonders.

Imp and Seafaring both have lighthouse bonuses. What about a change for Imperialist to instead of the lighthouse bonus, could you give it like -50% colony maintenance? That would certainly fit the Imperialist stance of setting up shop in every corner of the world.

Just some late night thoughts.

Typo on my part. IMP get's discoutned Airports. My thinking is both buildings that offer extra XP for FAST moving Military (Airforce and Mounted) are doubled by IMP. The -50% colony benefit sounds good to me except I percieve it's very difficult to do in XML only. Again I am open to suggestions/advice on how to do this in XML.

 

[mzprox]

After I did everything I sort of agree, IND needs just a tad more. Two chocies I see: 1) Add a free hammer or two to IND per city, similar to the CRE or SEC trait or 2) double speed of the levee thus discounting all of those hammer modifying buildings.

Alternatively, I have considered nixing the entire Wonder bonus, making World Wonders a Free for all but Giving IND a base +2 hammers/city or a 10% production boost. However, Spamming wonders with IND is a "FUN" part of the game and I am not sure I want to see that go.

I'd give
+2 for forges and factories
+25% prod for wonders (all type)

 

[madscientist]

Charismatic - Remove double monuments. It would be rediculous because of gold overflow. +70 every time you make a monument? Not necessary. Charismatic is amazing anyway.

Seams to be a popular opinion on the discounted buildings and CHA. The overflow is somethign I did not consider, and you are definitely right there (and we thought PRO walls were bad!). So the Monument is NOT discoutned anymore and I will switch it to Broadcast Tower being discoutned (and alter CRE).

Industrious - This has always been one of the weaker traits...

I agree, although it is a FUN trat as it is. Still it either needs a littel more pop than what I have, or a rewrite to add pure hammers (either free like CRE culture, or adding to existing hammers like Financial and commerce) or a percentage boost while eliminating teh Wonder Bonus. I do find IND lacking at higher levels as it is.

Financial - double banks AND wall street?? The commerce bonus change wouldnt make a difference on land anyway. Shaving so many turns off getting wall street may be overkill.

Yeah, but I nerfed Financial good here and banking/corporation are mid-game techs. I tell you what, there will be very few games when I play Financial here that I run State Property, Capitalism rules!!! Liz the Corporation Queen!

BAsically I wanted to turn Financial from a dominating early tech game to a more powerful as the game goes along.

Philosophical - This is way too much of a nerf. +50% GPP isn't 50% more GP, it's closer 20%.

As I discussed in a reply before this, I sort of agree and need to readjust. Perhaps a free 1 0r 2 beakers per city (similar to CRE) may do teh trick and certainly shift PHIL to a beaker trait while Financial is shifted to a GOLD trait. Also PHI got too much of a boost in BTS with espionage and corps.

Seafaring - I have a feeling this trait is going to be completely rediculous. I think financial is supposed to be seafaring, and it does a fine job of that.

Time will tell on this. I like teh idea of a trait focusing on improving Trade Routes and I think this does it. Also teh Trade Route modification at least helps when SEA is landlocked or with massively large continents. I play alot of Big/Little maps and occasionally get massive, Pangea type maps.

I also think economics is a definitely beeline for this trait for cheap Custom Houses which are more devastating with teh double intial trade yield. By teh way, the trade route bonuc can be dropped to maybe 50%. At worse I can ditch the free Naval promotion but I sort of like that (especially killer Vikign Navies).

Protective is still terrible, and diplomatic seems underpowered. It's been suggested to give extra EP to protective.

I think I gave PRO a nice boost! Faster GG during defensive war means higher promotions early on. At first I had cheap jails but thought it too powerful.

I like the Diplomatic Trait (SECRATIVE, please, SECRATIVE) and the added ep is VERY powerful if you use espionage as it whould be in BTS. Those SPY buildings is discoutns as very expensive to build also. I knwo your screwed with isolation, but hey, so is the Aggresive trait.

 

[madscientist]

I'd give
+2 for forges and factories
+25% prod for wonders (all type)

As odd as it sounds, using XML to add hammers to a building for a specific trait is not that easy. So for not it goes directly to the city.

I do like your idea of perhaps finding a middle road here. 25% boost to World Wonders (I am way too proud of my idea to spread out the national Wonder bonus') and perhaps add 1 hammer per city, or +1 hammer per 4 hammer tile.

 

[madscientist]

Protective: fortified units can add up defensive bonus for 1 extra turn, so up to +30% in 6 turns. It requires to edit SDK, but it's very simple.

I read alot of Modding Tuitorials, and editting SDK is probably something I am NOT doing anytime too soon. However, doubling fortification is a nice idea, but still susceptible to seige weapons. Also early game PRO AIs with this are going to be an absolute pain (Hello Sitting Bull)

 

[madscientist]

Isn't that just an XML change? It's something like MAX_FORTIFY_TURNS in Globaldefines.

I have not seen teh XML, but can it be directly related to a trait??? That was the problem I found, things like extra trait routes, having trait building give bonus's (Like SEA lighthouse granting an extra commerce to sea tiles) are not very easy and need SDK or Python modding.

 

[madscientist]

I'll definately try this out once you release it! My thoughts and ideas, bear in mind i'm a prince level player

Charismatic - Agree with Jamuka, remove double monuments

Yeah god's! Double Monuments are gone!

Industrious - Seems ok

Nah, it does need a boost or tweak.

Imperialistic - I like the idea JFleme posted above, but without the -10% for all units
Otherwise, I think something extra late game is needed

Late game is the airport, I corrected my typo.

Organized - With no cheap factories, something extra needed late game.
How about a benefit to do with drafting: Infantry takes off only 1 pop to draft (too strong? ), can draft at lower population (size 5?), reduced draft unhappiness?

Modding the draft is beyond my abilites at the moment.

I agree it got a little nerfed, the later market offsets the missing early lighthouse and then some. Some earlier mentioned Public Transportation which seams like an ORG thing to do (However, I do like in NY and our transit system is, well I won't go there) , so I think I'll add that. Jails were also mentioned, perhaps jails and Public Transportation and take the market out.

Creative - Seems ok

With Broadcast Towers going to CHA, I need something else here. Is cathedrals too overpowered here??? Perhaps a 50% boost to cathedrals??? I would certainly like to see CRE emphasize a culture victory tract instead of a Scientific (cheap libraries) or warring/REX (border pops) trait.

Spiritual - Double missionaries seems too strong to me.
Make it conditional, say double missionaries with monastary and org rel. How about double monastaries?

SPI took a nerf with BTS and needs to be boosted I think. I originally wanted to make it conditional but that's too difficult to mod in XML. Monestaries are pretty cheap already for what they do, but I may consider a double bonus to them. Still, fast religion spread seams a SPI thing to do (I can here Isyy, Sal, and Charles all cheering already).

Protective - Seems ok, but maybe something extra is still needed. One idea: worker double speed building of forts?

Not a bad idea about the forts. I have no idea if the XML for improvement can be trait modified but I can check. I can also add Jails at double the cost but I though the 50% GG boost within culture borders did the trick.

Financial - Seems ok

Good!

Agressive - Seems ok. What about an extra promotion for aircraft?

Yeah, Agressive may need a little something more but I really want to play out the free naval combat I to see if that does it. An aircract boost is certainly an idea.

Philosophical - Agree with Jamuka that 50% GPP seems like a big nerf, needs something to compensate. What about a benefit like +10% science modifier in all cities? But that might be too strong...

Yep, looking at adding 1 or 2 raw beakers per city rather than a percentage.

Expansive - Maybe needs a cheap building or something else late game...

Yeah, I agree. EXP should help ealry in the game with expanding (Granery/wroker) and help dealing with pollution late game (Aqueducts/grocer). I think a discoutned Supermarket with the extra 1 food and health from meat may be the trick.

Sea Faring - Looks super strong for any map with water, guess that is the point

Did I mention Vikings will be SEA/AGG

Espionage - No opinion, see how it plays i guess.

My biggest concern on the Espionage trait is how the AIs utilize it, and how I can play against an AI who is SEC and I am not. Definitely the most "Play Testing" trait here. Myself, I use the espionage ability in the game so I know what to do with it.

 

[madscientist]

Oh yes, you're absolutely right.

To answer the quote and this post.

So I thought. it's SDK modding which I am not up to dooing at thise time.


Thanks to all for your input!

 

[tycoonist]

my one comment would be that you have made protective even more irritating: useless in the hands of a human, infuriating in the hands of an AI.

 

[madscientist]

my one comment would be that you have made protective even more irritating: useless in the hands of a human, infuriating in the hands of an AI.

Yes a balancing act, one of my concerns about readjusting these traits. Still, we should be able to RUSH Protective leaders the same way, just make sure we do it before they pop a few GGs.

I also nerfed the AIs use of financial so I have to see if I am consistenyl at the top of the tech race at emperor. If I am I need to rethink some of these changes.

 

[Fetch]

what is the difference between 'double production speed' and '+100% production'? By my math they're the same, right?

 

[madscientist]

what is the difference between 'double production speed' and '+100% production'? By my math they're the same, right?

There is no difference. Just a way for me to structure it in my head, +100% so I remember it's a NAtional Wonder, double speed for a regular building/unit.

 

[madscientist]

Tinkered a bit more with the traits http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8033498&postcount=30

Overhauled IND quite a bit focusing on hammers at teh cost of Wonders (25% from 50%). +1 hammer per 4 hammer means heavy resources, CAste workshops, leveed watermills, plains mines, railroaded lumbermills, railroaded grassland hills get a boost. Thus as Wonder importance drops, IND starts to shine more and more.

Buffed Secrative with another cheap building (Jails) and added 1 food per 5 food tile (thus those secret agriculture techniques only that civilization knows). So sailing (for fish), Civil Service (irrigate grains), Biology are favorable techs.

Other changes are just reshuffling cheap buildings.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, I also added +2 beakers to each Phil city.

 

[Ghpstage]

+2 beakers to each Phil city

I don't think this will turn PHI into a science trait, but rather an uber REXing trait.

You could use all your citizens to work (why bother with scientists!?) to cover your maintenance to expand even more and then have your inherent +2/city dig you out of any hole you managed to dig yourself into .

Later on though +2 would be utterly worthless....

Maybe change it to +2 per library to block any super REX abuse, then add some + values to universities, astronomies etc for PHI only? (Like moument +1 for CHA) May be able to make its usefulness last and not have it be broken then.

Spiritual - Double missionaries seems too strong to me.

I agree here, this would make SPI players able to utterly control the world diplomacy.
If you want to get a crusade against a former friend going you could spam missionaries to them of a heathen religion.
You could also beat any other civ to converting the world at the start, will lead to far more polarized religions IMO.

 

[madscientist]

I don't think this will turn PHI into a science trait, but rather an uber REXing trait.

You could use all your citizens to work (why bother with scientists!?) to cover your maintenance to expand even more and then have your inherent +2/city dig you out of any hole you managed to dig yourself into .

Later on though +2 would be utterly worthless....

Maybe change it to +2 per library to block any super REX abuse, then add some + values to universities, astronomies etc for PHI only? (Like moument +1 for CHA) May be able to make its usefulness last and not have it be broken then.



I agree here, this would make SPI players able to utterly control the maps diplomacy.
If you want to get a crusade against a former friend going you could spam missionaries to them of a heathen religion.
You could also beat any other civ to converting the world at the start, will lead to far more polarized religions IMO.

You might be right about the REXing abilities although 20 beakers from 10 cities still is not cutting it. Perhaps an inherant +10% science (I hate going down that road), or perhaps splitting the difference and giving Phil +75% GP plus the cheap observatory and lab.

As far as the SPI leaders, well yeah. That's the nature of the business, more religion spreading. Perhaps a 50% boost, same with Spies for SEC and Execs with FIN. Thus ass cheap units are capped at 50% (same as settlers and workers).

 

[Antilogic]

As an alternative for Spiritual, I have been working with double production on cathedrals (all "super" religious buildings, not just Christian ones) as an alternate boost. It's interesting because Spiritual becomes a stronger trait for the Culture victory (both temples and cathedrals boosted -> culture generation), and it's not as unbalancing as double production on missionary units.

Just a suggestion.

 

[CLST]

I like Peter in this setup.

 

[Gooblah]

Maybe change the Protective promos?

Gunpowder gets Drill I/II
Archer gets Drill I/City Garrison I

Of course, someone like Churchill would become an even bigger beast...