Power of Tradition

[Tabarnak]

Following what i already made into the S&T forum, i tried to apply this start into mp mode. The bad side is that the capital needs a strong production site and/or forests.

I'm sure that Liberty is better in many cases(close neighbor, low production, etc), but here is an example of how Tradition can give you a real powerhouse and propulse yourself far away in term of productivity. For those who think that Liberty is still almost or always better, you might stump into this kind of civ using Tradition...just saying...

 

[Slvynn]

Agree completely.
IF you need liberty desperately... take it with tradition
Tradition food bonuses are one-of kind and very powerful, many people understimate power of food growth in GnK

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

Yes, it seems to have a movement to Tradition in MP games. Some very good players play sometimes with it : merle, fredodo, you... I still don't. But i am curious

You need to decide between tradition and liberty in 1st 10 turns, what drive your decision ?
What is your path in tradition ?

i am curious, because tradition is nerf in g&K compared to vanilla, what's make it better now according to you ?
Does rushing aqueduc with liberty can have the same effect ? Maybe it is only quick aqueduc that is strong.

 

[RStark]

Hello Tabarnak!

What civ do you think will suit best for this tradition strategy in MP?

 

[Tabarnak]

Hello Tabarnak!

What civ do you think will suit best for this tradition strategy in MP?

Every civs that get a nice early bonus. Any of them.

France(culture civs), religious civs, nice early UUs(for better defense), etc. Quite a lot of them.

 

[Tabarnak]

You need to decide between tradition and liberty in 1st 10 turns, what drive your decision ?

Low production site, close and potentially agressive neighbors--->Honor/Liberty
Otherwise Tradition might be better if you can get enough happiness.

What is your path in tradition ?

Legalism
Monarchy
Landed Elite
Aristocracy/Oligarchy(if attacked Oligarchy deals great damage).

i am curious, because tradition is nerf in g&K compared to vanilla, what's make it better now according to you ?

More happiness available and free aqueducts are awesome. If you add free monuments, with 4 cities, this makes a neat +8 gpt. Add gold bonus from monarchy and you can get a nice gpt rate. Good synergy with high cities

Does rushing aqueduc with liberty can have the same effect ? Maybe it is only quick aqueduc that is strong.

Of course but you need to spend energy to get them(production or gold) and gpt maintenance.

 

[MasterMishi]

why trad? to get a really strong powerhouse cap with a superior science output and out tech whilst still maintaining above average hammers and stayting defensive until ren era.

i go trad if i feel i wont need to defend an all in rush early and the map/ number of players means my best chance to win is in late ren or later era

My tradition build:,

cap: worker, gran, GL, HG, unit, NC, settler, settler, worker, units, shrine, watermill, oracle, chichen iza, uni, workshop, market, himeji, public school, research lab, factory, wonders/ units


cities: workshop, food buildings, science buildings, happiness buildings

policy: wonder bonus, free buildings, grow bonus, happy bonus, city hp

tech: to writing, bulb maths, to unis or defense unit tech, to workshops, to himeji, to public school, to research lab, to factory, to unit/ resource tech, space techs

notes:
maybe not go GL if not top hammers and other players also goes writing
food focus, then hammer focus for wonders and NC.
worker or units in early build order as needed
build order in new city to respond to terrain and happiness
works well for a frigate rush


conclusion:
can usually defend a small rush as a result of a strong hammer cap with HG and policy, by switching to units after NC, but if the switch to units has to occur before NC or has to be sustained, then it is my instinct that the builders gambit has failed.


some mp experince:

nq 6player shuffle: england defensive terrain small conts:
quick GL,HG,NC 2nd city
france rexed into me, cold war
spam lonbows and galleas and capture iron city, spam ship o line (frigate) and annex some france some puppet.
take out maya cap (on par with mine) with sneak attack frigs
upgrade to destroyers
now in unassailable position

open 4player ffa:
maya with attilla neighbour:
GL,HG,NC
attila has 30k units, i spam 4 chariot archers just before he attacks, he attacked light and didnt expect the units to defend, i weakend his units, he withdraws and i kill him then spam units to counter and puppet him. then crashes

 

[Silverfuturist]

I always use tradition in NQ/FFA games... if I can somehow turn the dreaded unit-cycling bug off, I might try it in league.

 

[TheHanzou]

I would only go tradition if i had a very good chance of getting the library asap. Otherwise Liberty.

 

[Tabarnak]

I would only go tradition if i had a very good chance of getting the library asap. Otherwise Liberty.

I guess you mean the GL? I never built this wonder since i got GnK...so useless. So much more important things to build during that time.

 

[Onan]

Do tell. Religion?

 

[TheHanzou]

I think you are underestimating GL in Multiplayer, its one of the 2 early wonders that have a huge impact on the game (the other being stonehenge).

That said i dont go tradition because its bad for various reasons.

 

[Foffaren]

I think you are underestimating GL in Multiplayer, its one of the 2 early wonders that have a huge impact on the game (the other being stonehenge).

Please elaborate.
I've seen it been used for iron working with romans. Other than that I think I'm with Tab. GL is not something I desperately need. I do like stonehenge though.

 

[Tabarnak]

Do tell. Religion?

Thats a good point. High cities can compete with wide empires now because they get a more powerful Tradition finisher and more happiness is available to make it functionnal.

That said i dont go tradition because its bad for various reasons.

It's your opinion but Tradition is surely ''less bad'' than before.

I don't underestimate the power of an early GL, but its still a silly wonder race and you need a good forested land to make sure you gonna make it in time. Mostly civ/map dependent.

 

[TheHanzou]

Tradition is worse than before actually. I dont want to post this because most people dont even know the mechanics but since you can check it up in the pedia anyway...

Religion is not a positive for tradition. Religion is basically the main reason why tradition is bad now. Religion does not scale with population, it only scales with number of cities. A design flaw that makes tradition even worse.

Every city in 10 (13 with belief) hexes distance produces 9 pressure, no matter the faith or population. So what happens is that if you build fewer cities, not only do u lose out on the flat boni that religion provides (since you have fewer cities), but you are doomed to get overwhelmed by a liberty players religion since he can produce a lot higher pressure just based on number of cities.

On top of that the beliefs that work best for tradition are the ones that provide boni based on number of followers. However even if you use all your faith (which is a lot less than a liberty player can produce, mind you) to defend your cities from takeover, you lose a lot of followers all the time to pressure, punishing you twice for not building lots of cities.

Liberty is also absolutely independant of starting position and even luxuries (thanks to religion), while tradition relies heavily on it. With religion the good old ICS (infinite city spawn) is back in full force, just requires a bit more skill and foresight.

As for the GL, its simply the fact that tech is very important in FFA games and even teamers or 1v1. And i have never in any game been able to come back in tech on a good player that went GL, its one of the strongest wonders imo alltough people underestimate it usually. Generally it allows you to get some key techs first, and those few turns you get on later wonders or production buildings really pay off quite big.

Stonehenge works much in the same way. If you can found a religion first next to some other player, especially if his cities are still small, you can take his whole empire with religion before he can even establish his own. At that point he will never gain his religion anywhere ever again other than in his capital, and even that only for a few turns.

This makes for some silly situation, for example liberty ISC etiopia is insanely strong even tough you waste 50% of their special abilities. Tradition is nice in theory, but usually you will get shut down in expansion because you cant build settlers early enough, and in religion because you have no pressure to defend yourself with.

 

[Tabarnak]

I't pretty rare to have enough space for 5-6 cities by your own. It sounds pretty powerful but i never said that a religion is an important part of a Tradition approach. Gaining other religions can actually be good for your empire.

With a Tradition start you can make 2 more cities before hitting the 3rd policy. That makes only 1 more city with Liberty(and you don't have your free worker yet). By that time you can be very close from either Iron Working or Construction. You can also be very close already to another civ. Are you going to expand even more and take a chance to be rushed by your neighbor? Most wars occur after getting 3-4 cities.

Of course if you have a lot of land to settle a Liberty start will be more effective.

Liberty is really useful if you can actually use it for much bigger self expansion, more like 6+ cities right of the bat. But again it's civ/map dependent like it is for Tradition.

 

[Silverfuturist]

I always use tradition in NQ/FFA games... if I can somehow turn the dreaded unit-cycling bug off, I might try it in league.

I want to clarify... I always get the liberty production/settler/worker policies before going deep into tradition... the only time I go tradition without liberty is in special circumstances, such as tiny-islands with a naval rush plan.

 

[Silverfuturist]

I't pretty rare to have enough space for 5-6 cities by your own.

What kind of map?

We should play more often! I have had many games vs competitive players where I have been able to get 5-6 cities in. In public games 5-6 is EZ cuz they don't realize that 1-3 cities is so weak (unless special circumstances arise) and they don't take the space.

 

[Tabarnak]

Sure

How much cities can you have with Liberty after 40-45 turns? In 40-45 turns i can have 4 cities and 3 workers and CBs for defence(usually 5-6 of them) with an average production capital. Of course i will add some more after NC or conquer some among the way. My screenshot show 4 cities for a long period of time but as you can see there was no other spots for more. Iroquois had 6 LS, tried to take the closest city but 5 LS and 5 crossbows were enough to deter him. I couldn't cut through before artillery.

I had some games with over 10 cities under Tradition and with cities at 20+ pop.

Even in singleplayer the Tradition tree surpass Liberty in most cases. I talked to tommynt and wanted his first impressions and he said that both trees are pretty equal(maybe it was for sp only i dunno).

I played a lot of games under Tradition since the game came out and probably that i'm more clever about how to use it too.

 

[tommynt]

the differences from trad to lib are really slim when u look closly.
All what trad gives u bascially is 2 food in cap and a free aque early midgame.

hardly gamebreaking

Liberty meanwhile gives a free settler and faster others what means cap growth for all those turns cap gotta produce settlers in tradition and the free hammer.
The great dude is now allmost useless as it puts up the counter.

I m pretty sure I can beat medium skilled players without using any sp and i think that shows well how relativly slim the boni are.

Sure the free aques are nice, but how much they help depend really on game situation.

edit: in duel situations with a possible early war the right now bonuses from liberty just look stronger on paper.

btw a spain with finding 2 nw and using trad ... -getting fee settlers and workers for the gold having a monument allready a and can build a granny right away seems pretty ridic - 3-4 ciites with monument and granny and a worker before turn 30 looks unbeatable if no being celt. And cap is free to spam wonders with a 15% bonus soon. But well going lib this looks very strong aswell ...