Predict AI Wonder takeover

[gavenkoa]

I plan to take some Wonders but I need estimates when AI can complete ones.

I play isolated small islands so early game is without war / barbarians / AI expansion threats. It is building game and I like to build some Wonders to boost economy before first contact with AI (Compass?).

I usually replay first 100T to optimize opening. I can write down points when AI complete Wonders and use it as reference. Is there a way to blindly predict that AI is going to complete certain Wonder?

Is there any extra info in UI? As I understand F9 Wonder stats are post fact. Without fist contact I don't know list of Techs.

How does direct contact with AI help? Monitoring AIs Tech list helps with determining lower bounds.

How can scouting help? Should I visit cities?

How espionage helps?

I play on Immortal for competitive game:

* https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Difficulty_level_(Civ4)
* http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php?title=Civ4HandicapInfo

iResearchPercent = 125% (it costs me 25% more than my rivals).
iAIConstructPercent = 80% (it costs rivals 20% less than me to build).

So I am in disadvantage and can't stay tech / construction lead until late winning part of game.

Last game I succeeded with Stonehenge, Oracle, Parthenon, Great Library (I am philosophical and got CoL + Confucian Shrine) but unable to get Apostolic Palace. I want to sacrifice city count, growth just to get Apostolic Palace and other listed techs...

Without estimations I can't plan my research & build path.

For this path I left out Bronze Working & Animal Husbandry for late research but I can benefit from each from T11 (I had the capital on Marble+plain hill = +3H). Any this tech slows me by 10-20T to get Oracle before T55-60.

 

[sampsa]

Maybe someone else can help with your actual questions, but I can help you with strategy. Going Stonehenge, Oracle, Parthenon, Great Library when isolated is probably not a great idea. GLH is the wonder on island maps and Mids is strong when isolated. Stonehenge is nearly always just bad, Oracle is good mostly for getting a tech that you can trade around (so not that useful isolated). Going aesth-route for Parth+GLib when isolated is slowing down first contact (optics, not compass). Shrines are rarely worth building, as it costs a great person. Say 6-7 per turn is not bad, but losing quite a lot compared to a bulb or a merchant mission. It's much better to let AI found religions and waste their GP on a shrine for you to capture.

 

[Fippy]

I think your main question is, can you predict if AIs will start wonders?
Nope, anyone who watched Sulla's AI survivor can confirm that they do veeery random stuff
They will often whip wonders (despite heavy penalties), once they can.

Scouting can be of some help, if you have view on their big cities.
You could watch what comes out of places, and you can in theory also monitor if new buildings appear (city graphics, yay Kaizilla).

Espionage can help in a way that if one of their cities has lots of hammers invested, you know it's a wonder (cos nothing else would cost so many, especially with their discounts on Immortal).
But you need points invested first, so it's mostly helpful if focused on 1 AI only.

If you have no contact at all (isolated, or semi), you can just hope.
Good news is that failgold can sometimes be better than actual wonders.

 

[Gumbolt]

Agree with Sampsa. How are these wonders actually helping your economy? Unless you are using stone and marble for fail gold? Great library maybe with free scientists but a bureau capital and early cottages and an academy could easily get you to literature much quicker. Reaching optics and caravels would really help you meet AI so you can trade techs. (Compass allows harbours and explorers. You need machinery for optics.)

Stonehenge/Oracle will create great priest points in your city. Parth will add great artist points too but help base GP rate by 50%. Great scientists are much better earlier on. You want to avoid getting too many great people that have minimal use. A shrine over 4-5 cities is not great.
I guess you like bulbing religious techs to start religions. I would rather wait for an early GS for an academy. This gives 50% boost to science in your capital.

In a golden age with philosophical trait, pacifism and bonus from the golden age this gives you 300% GP bonus to base GP points.This is why many player have 3-4+ cities using many scientists or merchants during golden ages. Merchants much less useful if you are isolated. So an additional 50% bonus to your base GP points really adds little if your already have a 300% bonus. Parth is marginal really.

How is delaying bronze working good for the economy? This means you can't whip builds and use overflow towards wonders? Better to focus on whipping libraries, granaries, workers and settlers to help city growth, expansion and forward science. Slavery is an important early game mechanic.Avoding AI also means no foreign trade routes unless you can settle an island city.

If you are truly isolated how do you plan to view nearby Ai to see what they are up to? There is a way of looking at espionage screen to see how many hammers an AI has in a build. Also you can look at AI willingness to trade techs. Some AI will say 'we don't wish to trade this away just yet'. This indicates they are building the wonder. Isolated you can't do this.

Overall mids and GLH on isolated starts. You still need to grab land early on if you want to support a strong economy. You still need science to reach these techs. GLH gives you 2 free trade routes on each coastal city. That is huge!

How are you actually winning these games? Not every start will have marble. Or are you regenerating maps till you get marble?

 

[gavenkoa]

It's much better to let AI found religions and waste their GP on a shrine for you to capture.

That's the point! I'd like to explore peaceful style. Not just smashing of first discovered opponent after Astronomy.

Note that I don't put first 1-2 Great Prophet (from Stonehenge & Oracle) into Shrine but 3rd one when number of cities is 6-7. I spread religion to AI with Optic's Caravel. That gave me extra +5/+6 gpt, hope AIs finish spreading themselves. Settling 2 Great Prophets gives +10gpt (and +4H) - I can keep research 100% with 3-4 cities. +2H per prophet also is multiplied by forge and help to build faster.

 

[sampsa]

That's the point! I'd like to explore peaceful style. Not just smashing of first discovered opponent after Astronomy.

OK, nothing wrong with that. That doesn't change my point though, shrines (and therefore prophets) are simply weaker than what GS/GM can offer you, no matter if you play peaceful or not. While a settled great prophet doesn't sound that bad on paper, it is delaying your optics/astro date. Astro trade routes are what +6 per city or so? Then there are lucrative trading options too (both resources and techs). That's why strong players mainly focus on getting astro asap and are willing do make some sacrifices (like not going for stonehenge ) for it.

 

[gavenkoa]

Astro trade routes are what +6 per city or so?

Wow, trade routes gives instead of . They are subject for multipliers!

Oversea trade route boosts income to 2-3 cpt, instead of domestic 1 cpt. Currency doubles this, Harbor adds 50%. 3 (base cpt) * 2 (Currency) * 1.5 (Harbor) = 9 cpt, am I correct? And it is from one city! Shrine gives that from all cities only and while 9 cpt can be multiplied by science building further...

shrines (and therefore prophets) are simply weaker than what GS/GM can offer you, no matter if you play peaceful or not.

So building Shrine, some Wonders is just irrational/obsessive desire that far from optimum.

It is just a challenge you decide to deal with. Like choosing Deity but instead proclaiming I go for religion & Apostolic Palace for hammers instead of Astronomy.

 

[sampsa]

Yeah, depends on the specifics, but astro often gives like +6 compared to pre-astro. Selling resources might be +30 per turn easily too.

Of course you can play the game any way you want, but this is strategy and tips...

 

[Gumbolt]

So how do you plan to win the game? You also need to factor in cost of all these missionaries (Building missionaries instead of running wealth.). It's so much easier to let the AI find an early religion and then build the shrine for you.

Also don't forget currency early on allows an extra trade route per city. Alphabet and currency allows you to build science and wealth. Main reason to spread a religion would be to help cities during golden ages.

Of course being able to whip these would really help here.

 

[AcaMetis]

Oversea trade route boosts income to 2-3 cpt, instead of domestic 1 cpt. Currency doubles this, Harbor adds 50%. 3 (base cpt) * 2 (Currency) * 1.5 (Harbor) = 9 cpt, am I correct? And it is from one city! Shrine gives that from all cities only and while 9 cpt can be multiplied by science building further...

No. Currency doesn't double trade route income, it adds +1 trade route to each city. Though early on, when all of your cities only have the one (domestic) trade route, that is effectively doubling, in a way.

Trade Route income is based on a number of factors. I don't recall everything off-hand, but I believe the short version is that the base value of a trade route is based on the size of your city and the city they're trading with, and than a stack of multipliers increase that value - +150% for sustained peace, +100% for overseas trade route, +50% for a Harbor, Capitols get an extra +25%, etc. Trade routes in iso are so lucrative because every city gets the +100% overseas trade routes multiplier, and on high difficulties AIs tend to have gigantic cities that provide a healthy base value, so that one multiplier is noticeable.