[BTS] Prepare to DIE! #2

[Fish Man]

This game so far in a nutshell:

Spoiler :

Played to t125:

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I decided to give this one a shot, but in my usual way of seeing just how much I could rig in my favor and abusing rerolling/map knowledge to do something bat**** crazy (I know who/where everyone and everything was, but I didn't give myself anything else, and the new random seed option is off despite me turning off BAT for convenience/graphics, so I can't just replay until I win every 1% fight, as that would be too cheap). I know @Gwaja was going to try to kill us...so I was determined to turn the tables around.

My initial idea for a cheese strat was to forward-settle Rome and axerush Julius, since I didn't think chariots were going to be very effective against hilltop archers. However, it turned out we didn't need either of these, because -

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Yes, that's right. I took Rome with a SINGLE WARRIOR (I stole his starting worker and didn't build one of my own until much later). How was this possible?

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Julius decided to do a bunch of very perfectly stupid things in rapid sequence. First, he sent TWO of four archers in Rome out to attack Berlin; one died and the other was on its way. Second, he attacked OUT of Rome with two archers, against my warriors on the hilltop. I was counting on some lucky RNG to help me out, and it did - the first archer won but was left with pretty much 0.3/3 health, and the second lost. So I sent two warriors there, and I was left with one warrior that survived a low-odds defensive battle, to promote to CRI and then take Rome at 78% odds. The last archer you see just...lost the will to fight after that, and fortified one tile north of where it was for several turns before I baited it into dying as well.

After that, mopping him up was a trivial task. I made peace, got some axes, and then razed his poorly-placed second city. The real fight was with the barbarians, who wouldn't stop swarming us until well past t100. We killed about 8 of JC's archers but faced 30 barb archers and 42 other barb units.

Spoiler :

Despite the barb troubles, we got astro t123 (200AD), and we're now in a decent position. The island is good enough for me to win any way I want now, especially as much of it isn't even settled yet. Finally got a few cities in the areas we started from in the first place...not much use for the stone and marble now, unfortunately.

At 100%, I'm at about 300bpt. Nobody I've met has optics, but they have everything else.

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So, kids, what did we learn? Warrior rush is viable on deity!

I'm not even going to try for lib if this map is anything like the last, but one or two more GS coming up should mean chemistry is a pretty free bulb...and from there, steel. The other AIs being peacemongers means that they'll ignore that and rifling for a long time, making them easy pickings. Prepare to die, you say? I don't think we'll be the ones dying today...

 

[soundjata]

This game so far in a nutshell:

Spoiler :

Played to t125

Spoiler :

I think you are 100% spot on.
The longer this games goes without stopping JC, the harder
In my game, I am roleplaying Julius's puppy state that will betray in the end but turning the table around would be extremely costly, if even possible...
And certainly more than a couple a warriors

I might attempt a less extreme spin-off involving HA rushing

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T154 Spy Hard :

When I started again from T70, I hurried to get a gift settler out, but I came 2 turns late, gifted the city, got pleased and begged for half of fishing. But 10 turns later, he came at me with catapults and a horde of prets... So I just died. :'(
There was a 2 turn gap between the peace treaty weared off and when I got my settler into position. Kind of unlucky.
So I reloaded from around when I got the first GGeneral and extended the first war abit (there was no point making peace when I did first time around really).


Julius created Justinian when I had about 3000 espionage points on him.
That gives me 3000 points on Justinian for free, kind of crazy.

Julius got 4 cities fora +6 liberation bonus... which still wasn't enough.
When border tension dissappeared later on (I don't do much culture) it went up to Friendly though, but a beg almost closed the possible plotting gap.

Money for nothing, and the tech for free!

T141 I got the third GSpy, first was settled, second built oxford... Was planning on infiltration with the third, but since I got double EP through justinian I still had a ton of EP on Julius, so I just settled the third instead.
Hamburg is working on a Engineer to do something fun with.

T148 The city I gifted to Justinian flipped, or was gifted to Julius and I could steal from him instead.

Up at T154 now... the other AIs are looking scary.
Julius is plotting, likely on Lincoln which is his worst enemy.

 

[konata_LS]

@krikav

Spoiler :

So the colonies created by the AI keep all the that you spent on the master. I didn't know that. Glad I've learnt something new today
Semi-iso with JC is tough . I always have bad luck with JC. AI JC DoW me more frequently than Genghis does .
I don't think Freddy is a weak leader, but in this particular situation, probably Sitting Bull would be better than Freddy? as Praets just die to Dog soldiers and CG3 archers .

The other continents looks troublesome. 3 of them already got Astro

@soundjata

Spoiler :

4 cities Engineering attack against 16 cities JC looks scary . But JC's land is really nice if you manage to capture it.

@Fish Man

Spoiler :

Nice outside of the box game play Yes, it's with map knowledge, but sometimes map knowledge + a little good luck can make huge differences.

 

[soundjata]

@konata_LS I don't think my game is winnable

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I'm happy to have 1 turned Notre Dame but it won't help vs this big of a JC

 

[krikav]

Im not at all sure my game is either...

 

[Gwaja]

@krikav

Spoiler :

That plotting chart is really helpful. Thank you for that! I vote it to be stickied somewhere.

Now, it is my experience that even that 90% at "Pleased" becomes somewhat questionable and not entirely safe especially if the warmonger in question has nobody to consider plotting war against BUT YOU, for being semi isolated. I wasn't surprised at JC declaration on you given the circumstances. At least you were able to correct the situation in your favor, so that's good. And great work with spying too, as well as that extra juicy spy points to use against Justinian. That gifted city directly west of your capital... a real nice one!

I am concerned that there is still the possibility of another JC declaration on you for you being close to him. Screw worst enemies, because in my view, AI almost always favor closer targets. I hope to god it doesn't play out that way. He is already a monster, with a vassal, no less. And yeah, JC isn't the only threat in this game, as you have already observed. And worse may yet to come.

I am curious how you will approach the game from here. You put up a lot of effort to try to make JC happy. Will you now change your stance and look to wage offensive war against him to expand on your island continent? Will it be peaceful teching to try to catch up in tech? Ouch on other continents AI already having Astronomy....

@soundjata

Spoiler :

I share the same opinion as you in that earlier the JC is dealt with, the better. You have made a lot of effort to go out of your way, maybe even at the expense of your own expansion. to please him, and in that process, he may have gotten way too big in comparison to you, to wage war at this stage in the game. And he is only the beginning of your problem.

I love Notre Dame, and it is great to be able to 1-turn that thing, but I almost never end up being able to build that thing.

I know @Gwaja was going to try to kill us...so I was determined to turn the tables around.

I love all you fellow CivFanatics. I have no reason to try to kill any of you. ^_^ DId I really develop such a notorious reputation in this forum?

@Fish Man

Your tactics reminded me of ... **cough** certain someone named... **cough** @Fippy ""cough"" ""cough**....

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Nevertheless.... BRILLIANT!! How much you could achieve with warriors!!

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Early wonder spamming is surely tempting. I think it is still a gamble though, and the presence of stone and marble in the BFC may just well be a form of trickery to cloud our better judgment. What I am really interested from players is.... where they decide, ultimately, to settle.

As for the "Prepare to DIE" part... like I said... it is nowhere near close to anywhere like the first game. ^_^

 

[Fippy]

I used map knowledge in those crazy maps with raging barbs etc yup, of course
But i keep reloads at a minimum for a very long time now (nothing wrong with Fishman having fun there), manipulating combat odds isn't part of strategy for me personally.

 

[Gwaja]

I used map knowledge in those crazy maps with raging barbs etc yup, of course
But i keep reloads at a minimum for a very long time now (nothing wrong with Fishman having fun there), manipulating combat odds isn't part of strategy for me personally.

So..... you DO admit to wandering around your settler and wreaking havoc on innocent AI! Now who is more evil? ^_^

 

[Fippy]

Absolutely as Lymond would say
And you are not evil, keep the fun going and stay around

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Early wonder spamming is surely tempting. I think it is still a gamble though, and the presence of stone and marble in the BFC may just well be a form of trickery to cloud our better judgment. What I am really interested from players is.... where they decide, ultimately, to settle.

As for the "Prepare to DIE" part... like I said... it is nowhere near close to anywhere like the first game. ^_^

I understand how that could be a trick.

Spoiler :

This is why I mentioned Archers as n°1 possibility.
Going full on OCC (or 3 cities) and stacking Great Prophets in the capital could ensure 1 turn units around Macemen so... There's that. Macemen require metal, though. The OCC alternative is to wait for Rifles/Infantries. That's much less appealing.
I also think coastal access has great value.
There is no doubt in my mind that stone > marble, as far as the early resource is concerned. Marble doesn't really do much before you have the means to have several cities. Stone can be relevant from a single city (Stonehenge and Great Wall, you want to complete before turn 40). So, without moving the scout, yet, I would heavily favour the stone.
If this is a case of semi-iso, as you implied, then the Great Wall and a settled Great Spy can be a cute and efficient way to have access to tech trades.

I appreciate you mentionning that using the stone is a gambit. It is kinda true (especially if it means playing in the hope of not being DoWed) and it reminds me of what I said in the Toku thread about desperate measures being the sign of desperate players.

Cheers.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I like those simple maps. All you gotta do is be prepared.
To turn 28 :

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This is but a simple diaporama :

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Well, at this point, I think I'd rather not click End Turn and spoil copper location but rather restart Turns out I was rather well prepared.
Losing the 2-move scout was a little loose. Both other fights I had 90% winning odds
At least I didn't grill my brain on this one. I can see how scary it can be. Praetorians to a non-AGG leader, erf.

 

[Fish Man]

It's not over yet! Victory was less assured than I thought, and so the thrilling saga continues - to t199 (1390AD).

Spoiler :

I started to trade around optics (and metal casting, to the very-behind Pacal) before meeting the continent with the AIs-who-have-too-much-land. That way, getting the cheap stuff like alphabet, monarchy, CoL, aesthetics, and feudalism wouldn't count towards WFYBTA for AIs who I haven't made contact with yet. I also got a cheap civil service from Gandhi, ruining my chem bulb (in my defense, I really wanted buro and especially irrigation).

After meeting everyone, I got a few more sweet trades in. Gandhi won lib, obviously, and I gave him astro for engineering + philosophy when I thought he was closing in so that he wouldn't lib astro and just ruin my trades. Instead of astro, then, the idiot got...divine right??? Peaceful AIs tend to do that, I don't know why...and he wasn't even the first to the tech, if I remembered correctly! Besides Gandhi, Mansa gave me nationalism for astro, and I got printing press for nationalism from Gandhi.

Spoiler :

During the Renaissance, I was almost tech leader for a long while, but soon came to realize that there was a massive problem, likely intended by the creator of the map...a runaway India with 20+ cities. Gandhi pulled more and more ahead, blazing through the Renaissance era in short order and being first to the usual early industrial stuff that gives freebies (physics, communism). I decided I had to follow the philosophy of "take on the strongest AI in isolation, and the game is yours if you win that single war" - because the longer I ignored him, the more dangerous he got, and if he wasn't going to space, he was probably going to win culture by t250 or something crazy.

My idea was to get to steel and rifling and take him out before he got too dangerous by striking at his core, relying on the fact that he usually beelined culture techs like electricity or radio before ever touching rifling. However, my plan was disrupted when people got gunpowder and replaceable parts and started trading them around. Meanwhile, even without rifling her se, Gandhi was getting close to extremely dangerous stuff like assembly line and combustion. The distance was the real killer here...the cities best for whipping galleons were inconveniently placed, and necessitated launching an attack from the left of my empire, which meant ships took 7+ turns to reach his borders, even with circumnavigation bonus. By the time I got there, he had rifles and cavs, and I knew my collection of poorly-promoted cannons suddenly wouldn't be enough to take much, especially when soon up against machine guns and with reinforcements blocked by destroyers.

So...I reloaded, and instead of going communism like most games that drag on for this long, I devised a daring new strategy, something I've never done before - the artillery rush.

I bit the bullet and gave out steel for scientific method, and then steel + RP for physics. Hatty was getting rifling anyways (I learned that the hard way when I reloaded after a few AIs suddenly got it in a handful of turns), so I wouldn't have been able to hold on to that tech monopoly long regardless. Afterwards, I self-teched artillery, and meanwhile sailed off with a fleet of about 30 units, with a few stragglers that hopefully wouldn't die to destroyers. There was no time to wait for me to actually get artillery on the invading fleet, as Gandhi was 3-turning the entire industrial era in rapid succession.

Spoiler :

The plan was simple. I would take a few coastal cities with rifles + cannons (hopefully before he got rifles of his own, or worse, infantry), and then upgrade to artillery to push on. Taking out Gandhi's east coast will also hopefully reduce the amount of destroyers he can throw at me, and perhaps even kill some ships in port, increasing the likelihood that reinforcements can arrive safely. I realized that artillery specifically was the best solution I had to all the worries about this invasion. Facing machine guns or enemy cannons? They all count as siege units, so get destroyed even harder than rifles and cavs (artillery gets +50% vs siege; it's pretty neat). Worried about grenadier counterattacks? Cannons may die easily, but artilleries easily overpower a 12-strength unit, and can even stand up to cavs (and also can't be flanked by them). Because less artillery will die attacking, having a significantly higher base strength, I also solve the problem of all my cannons probably dying and me getting stranded in the middle of the war with no way to push on or reinforce, if I faced enough rifles and cavs. Worst-case scenario, even if he gets infantry or even tanks, artillery will have decent or even winning odds against them, especially when paired with airships. Meanwhile, because arties are a resourceless unit, they can be upgraded anywhere so long as it's your territory. I would upgrade my cannons as they go, and pray for the best.

Spoiler :

Another pivotal choice I made was bringing my woodsman III axe along for the ride, which acted as a superior medic (healing an extra 5% on the same time) - and when I attached a GG to him later, I got a free rifle with medic 1 as well, already bringing him up to par with a standard supermedic.

Despite trading for rifling midway into the war, I caught Gandhi at the critical moment when he didn't yet upgrade all his units. It also helped that I declared and bribed Mansa on him with MT + rifling a few turns before I actually landed, to maybe confuse him a bit and siphon away his stack onto attacking Mali. The coastal cities were garrisoned with medieval crap that I handily took care of, and I let him reinforce a bit before taking them. Miraculously enough, his entire stack was pretty much just 12 units (I knew this by sending an explorer to constantly spy on his lands and keep tabs on his troops, that I deleted at the beginning of the war), and though he built some cavs to try to defend his capital, when I blasted them away with artillery and took the city, it broke him. He got infantry in the middle of the war, but two weren't enough to save Delhi, and afterwards, every city was filled with just one or two infantry, a machine gun or something else useless, and outdated pikes and crossbows he didn't upgrade. Funny enough, in the final city I took, I faced a tank (so he just got industrialism), which my CR2 artillery even got winning odds facing...none of this would've been possible with only cannons. I lost just 1-2 artillery the entire war, because airships softened up cities enough to where I got 60% win chance even against the toughest defenders. Against all odds, my artillery rush with what ended up being a pretty pathetically-sized army actually worked, because Gandhi did his Gandhi thing and refused to ever build units (or upgrade them, for that matter).

Spoiler :

This is the final combined army size and conquered lands at the end of the war (I attacked both north and south of his empire at the same time, cutting apart the scant defenders, sometimes literally with a CRIII axe I wanted to upgrade but never got the change to). With about 40 units, that's certainly not a lot and would have completely died to any industrial-era AI besides Mr. "We never ever build units and work on Broadway while at war with 3 people".

Spoiler :

After sweeping the guy from coast to coast, I capped him, and with 28 cities and at the top of the scoreboard, I am finally free to do as I see fit. I think I'll finish Mansa and/or Pacal, and then make this world pay with nuclear fire for what headache it has caused me (literally, a headache, from staying up to play too long). You thought this was a civ game? It's about to turn into Fallout 4 .

Spoiler :

 

[Fish Man]

Oh, and save up to t199, posted separately since I'm already over the attachment limit.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^ Turn 199 ?! Did you go wild ? I guess you did
Happy for you. I'll have a look some time later.

 

[Fish Man]

So..... you DO admit to wandering around your settler and wreaking havoc on innocent AI! Now who is more evil? ^_^

No worries, I appreciate evilness and a little trolling if it's all in good fun

 

[Fish Man]

@Henrik75 I saw your latest teaser video, and I must say - great minds think alike

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[Gwaja]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

I guess you moved your scout east to reveal that gold which is absolutely hard to resist in not settling on the marble at that point. But I'd have to agree that stone is more beneficial for the early game wonders, and despite priests not being appreciated much, I think settled priests can be extremely overpowered.

Archery before Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry... ^_^ Without foreknowledge of map, perhaps the safest way to go, considering Fred starts with Hunting.

@Fish Man

Spoiler :

Once JC is out of the way in one way or another, the other continent AI are indeed problematic, but it is a saving grace that it happens to be Gandhi that has that much land. And good land at that too. Had it been someone that loves to build units in decent numbers (We don't even have to consider unit spammers like Mehmed), it would have been much harder. Considering how Mansa got screwed with such bad start, had Gandhi been replaced with some aggressive tendencies, that AI could have been transformed into a super AI that none of us may be able to handle.

So given the situation, you've made the right adjustment and the game should be a lot easier from here on out.

Absolutely as Lymond would say
And you are not evil, keep the fun going and stay around

Ah... but I can't see @lymond bullying his way with his settler into AI land and creating chaos. His peaceweight, I am sure, is higher even than AI Gandhi. ^_^

I hope to keep the fun going again also. ^_^

 

[Fish Man]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

I guess you moved your scout east to reveal that gold which is absolutely hard to resist in not settling on the marble at that point. But I'd have to agree that stone is more beneficial for the early game wonders, and despite priests not being appreciated much, I think settled priests can be extremely overpowered.

Archery before Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry... ^_^ Without foreknowledge of map, perhaps the safest way to go, considering Fred starts with Hunting.

@Fish Man

Spoiler :

Once JC is out of the way in one way or another, the other continent AI are indeed problematic, but it is a saving grace that it happens to be Gandhi that has that much land. And good land at that too. Had it been someone that loves to build units in decent numbers (We don't even have to consider unit spammers like Mehmed), it would have been much harder. Considering how Mansa got screwed with such bad start, had Gandhi been replaced with some aggressive tendencies, that AI could have been transformed into a super AI that none of us may be able to handle.

So given the situation, you've made the right adjustment and the game should be a lot easier from here on out.

Ah... but I can't see @lymond bullying his way with his settler into AI land and creating chaos. His peaceweight, I am sure, is higher even than AI Gandhi. ^_^

I hope to keep the fun going again also. ^_^

Spoiler :

Thanks for the compliments!

Regarding the Gandhi situation - if it was someone truly dangerous, like Huayna or Justinian, I likely would've taken on the other continent before preparing for a final showdown with tanks and nukes. It still would have been winnable, I think...just in another way, and far closer. A few years ago, I pulled off something like this against a runaway Huayna Capac who, despite having "less" cities, was far stronger and more of a threat, with his massive unit spam and 1550AD gunships.

Honestly, the best thing about this game was that by some stroke of miracle, everyone was following a different religion. Lincoln built Shwegady Pegady, I think, and switched into free religion, but everyone else followed something different - Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Confucianism, and Christianity were at play. This meant everyone remained only pleased or even cautious with each other (with low-peaceweight Pacal being a useful hate magnet), and no monopoly techs were being thrown around like free candy (and the only person who could do that was severely limited by his start).

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

I guess you moved your scout east to reveal that gold which is absolutely hard to resist in not settling on the marble at that point. But I'd have to agree that stone is more beneficial for the early game wonders, and despite priests not being appreciated much, I think settled priests can be extremely overpowered.

Archery before Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry... ^_^ Without foreknowledge of map, perhaps the safest way to go, considering Fred starts with Hunting.

Yes, this is absolutely what happened. It is generally accepted that one should scout opposite to his settling preference, in the event that it could reveal something better.
I did play very safe, indeed, but sometimes the game just won't let you have it. It is not a lost game, at this point, but all the advantage I could hope to gain from early units is gone

I also very much agree about settled priests, provided you can get a critical mass of them.