Preventing ai from requesting open borders...

[jgbaxter]

Hi there gang.

My friends and I have a rather large hatred for the "open borders" concept...

We believe if anything there should be levels of open borders

open borders 1 Allows trade
open borders 2 Allows exploration (scouts/explorers ...)
open borders 3 Allows passive units (workers/settlers ...)
open borders 4a Allows military units (max. of 5% of the units by strength, either host or visiting nation whichever is worse)
open borders 4b Allows military units w/defensive alliance (max. of 10% of the units by strength, either host or visiting nation whichever is worse)
open borders 4c Allows military units w/defensive alliance while at war against a mutual enemy (no max.)

Anyway, all that aside until the day that becomes possible, for now;

Is there a way to prevent nations from asking for open border unless they have a higher level of relations, +5 relations or something?

If it's a mod that'll do I suppose, I'd really like to know if there's something that would work for mp as well if that's possible, but will be happy to do it just for single player.

Thanks in advance for your helpful responses.

 

[Dusty4prez]

Um why does it matter if I may ask

 

[kamigawan]

It doesn't really matter, because there is no diplomatic penalty for denying open borders; they may also be canceled at any time for no penalty. As for limiting troops, if you don't trust them, don't bother opening borders. The impact on your economy is negligible, since you can still trade resources without open borders. Although trade routes are closed, trade routes with trusted nations should make the effect insignificant.

 

[King Flevance]

This would be interesting IMO. When Japan opened its borders with the west finally, they would not have allowed every civ to send over a bunch of riflemen or such. I think there would only be a need for 2. 1 being the passage for trade routes. And another for allowing units to come through. This has been discussed earlier although I dont remember where I saw it.

jgbaxtor - This would have to be modded in at the present. There is no way to do it without modding. I do not know of any mod that addresses this but it could exist. You may check around in the modding section of the forums and see what you come up with. You may even be able to put in a request if you are intimidated by modding yourself. But I do not know how much these are responded to. Your best bet is modding it in yourself.

There is no way to prevent them from asking. But there is no penalty either, its just annoying.

Hope this helps.

 

[jgbaxter]

It matters because we say it matters, that's what my post was about, it makes no logical sense to have 'open borders" as it is now, to us.

It's annoying having stupid civs bother players whose answer is always no, that is significantly aggravating.

King Flevance, I already did forum searchs and checked out the mod forums, I was unable to find anything that would do what's needed even in a basic capacity. Which surprised me as from what I've read, our group is not alone in it's dislike of the rudimentary open borders system.


Thanks for the answers, hopefully some intrepid modder will make a better system for open border, or at least stop the ai from asking if the relation level isn't high enough.

 

[Mewtarthio]

The AI itself could easily be modded with a few tweaks to the LeaderheadInfo XML file. Just copy the XML file (Program Files/Firaxis Games/Sid Meier's Civilization IV/Assets/XML/Civilizations/Civ4LeaderHeadInfos.xml) into the appropriate place in the "Custom Assets" folder.

Now, go to a leader and do one of two things: Either increase the tag <OpenBordersRefuseAttidudeThreshold> to increase the minimum level required for them to even consider Open Borders (the attitude listed in the tag is the highest attitude for which a given diplomatic option is redlisted with the excuse "We just don't like you enough"--I reccomend changing it to ATTITUDE_CAUTIOUS for your purposes) or go into <ContactRands> section and change the <iContactRand> value underneath <ContactType>Contact_Open_Borders to a higher number, making them contact you on their own with Open Borders requests less often.

The downside is this will also affect the AI-AI diplomacy. Under the first option, everyone becomes a Tokugawaesque isolationist, and you won't see any trade routes between civs who aren't already good friends. Under the second, you'll be kinda cheating, since you can initiate all the Open Borders treaties you want but the AIs won't sign with other AIs.

I don't know how to make the AI treat the human player differently from other AIs (beside's the fact that AIs don't get "you refused to help us!" penalties with other AIs). The two-tiered Open Borders system has been suggested before, and I'm frankly surprised that nobody's implemented it yet (incidentally, I'd prefer a system which allows Scouts, Explorers, and Missionaries along with the trade routes but not military units).

 

[The Sleepy Vike]

Don't give them Open Borders, the AI is pure evil!

 

[SCPete]

As far as realism the current system doesnt make sense. However under the current system I dont understand why it is such a big issue with players. So what they have troops tromping through your land. You can do the same. If the AI or human player declares war then all their troops are automatically removed from your land.

 

[jgbaxter]

Mewtarthio, so you recommend replacing (for each leader);

<iOpenBordersAttitudeDivisor>0</iOpenBordersAttitudeDivisor>
<iOpenBordersAttitudeChangeLimit>0</iOpenBordersAttitudeChangeLimit>



To 4 or higher in both cases?

I'm a little dense, but does that mean that a civ would need +4 relations or better to even consider requesting/accepting open borders?

I'm more than willing to do something of the sort to shut the ai up about open borders (for the most part) and since it'll be balanced for players and the ai being bound to it, I can accept that.

I presume it won't work in mp though?

Having a 2 tier (or more) system which would allow things like scouts/explorers/missionaries is a good one too, but I'll settle for this if that's all that's available.

Thanks for this idea, looking forward to hearing more about how best to do this.

 

[salty]

Nothing a couple thousand Modern Armors can't fix.

 

[JoeBas]

This is frequently a complaint I hear, from people who want the trade benefits of open borders, without any risk of having the computer snooping around scouting.

It's a balancing thing.

 

[Oggums]

I have a solution to those annoying open border requests...

Kill 'em all

 

[Veteranewbie]

This is frequently a complaint I hear, from people who want the trade benefits of open borders, without any risk of having the computer snooping around scouting.

It's a balancing thing.

No it's not a balance thing, what the AI can do you can do the same
It's actually for realistic reason and for saving the AI from doing stupid things

1. Any first met civ IRL will not allow the other to march a trillion troops through its territory without a fight
2. Save the AI from running right across your territory and conquer a barbarian city several miles away ruining its own economy
3. Historically open borders are for pilgrimage, trade, missionary etc. only a vassal state or a mutual alliance will allow the other nation troops to march through it
4. I don't want two AI whom I have open borders with to fight within my territory, that's stupid
5. If we have different level of open bordering we can actually allow backstabbing because, if you want normal relationship with an AI but don't trust an AI enough you'll have a choice to open one but no the other open border

 

[angelus512]

No penalty not really true. Least not from what happens to me.
Sometimes when a civ i'm closer with asks me to cancel OB with a civ i'm not so close with and i agree, the civ i cancelled OB with takes a sharp attitude change.

 

[kamigawan]

No penalty not really true. Least not from what happens to me.
Sometimes when a civ i'm closer with asks me to cancel OB with a civ i'm not so close with and i agree, the civ i cancelled OB with takes a sharp attitude change.

Yup, the exception is if you agree to "stop trading" altogether at the request of a third party. Since open borders is considered to be a trade, this does carry a penalty.

 

[angelus512]

You get a bonus with the requesting civ if you agree to cancel your trade deals though don't you?

 

[jgbaxter]

Mewtarthio, so you recommend replacing (for each leader);

<iOpenBordersAttitudeDivisor>0</iOpenBordersAttitudeDivisor>
<iOpenBordersAttitudeChangeLimit>0</iOpenBordersAttitudeChangeLimit>



To 4 or higher in both cases?

I'm a little dense, but does that mean that a civ would need +4 relations or better to even consider requesting/accepting open borders?

I'm more than willing to do something of the sort to shut the ai up about open borders (for the most part) and since it'll be balanced for players and the ai being bound to it, I can accept that.

I presume it won't work in mp though?

Having a 2 tier (or more) system which would allow things like scouts/explorers/missionaries is a good one too, but I'll settle for this if that's all that's available.

Thanks for this idea, looking forward to hearing more about how best to do this.

I'm still wondering if the above would work?


And someone needs to make a treaty mod, different treaties like multi level open borders, actual trade treaty, non-agresssion treaty... all that good stuff.

 

[jgbaxter]

RIght after I post the above I start up civ4...

It's reading my mind!

 

[Palantir30]

If the AI or human player declares war then all their troops are automatically removed from your land.

....After the results of the first battle that initiates war.

Troops are only ejected after the resolution of the first hostile action. For example, if you have deep internal cities being guarded only by outdated archers to quell the unappiness, then these are unsafe with Open Borders. An enemy civ (AI or human) could send one Cavalry dashing across your territory (with the benefit of your roads and rails), take this city and then burn it. Or kill a stack of 9 workers that were sitting and waiting for something to do.

They get a free attack, in other words. So there is an expense factor with open borders. You cant be as efficient as you'd like to be, stacking up defenses on border cities and leaving the heartland relatively demilitarized, and you also have to defend your workers as if you were at war. That's quite an expense list in both money, time and annoyance. All that for a few gold a turn in trade routes? No thanks (in general).

Count me as another supporter for two tiered Open Borders, one for trade and one for military.

Or better yet- make Open Borders only mean trade. Leave the military unit thing only to Defensive Pact'ed countries.

 

[chef pablo]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173388completly agree,trade and millitary should be seperate monsters.
If you find a modder thats willing to mess with open borders tack this on with it ,I think it goes along with the general idea