Principles of Provincial Creation

[Cyc]

Great job, Honorable Domestic Minister, Sir Donald III. I hereby second the proposal.

 

[blackheart]

I third your proposal SD3.

 

[Sir Donald III]

Thanks, guys.

If there are no other comments by the time I get back from work tommorow, then I'll send this up for JR. (Should we notify Octavian?)

 

[Rik Meleet]

Looks good, except D:

Any provincial border-change is a national matter and should be discussed and voted on by all the citizens. Even if the Governor(s) of the province(s) are against it, it should be possible to "update" the border.

 

[Sir Donald III]

"All of the Citizens" are what is meant by the "House". (a.k.a. "The House of the People".)

Okay, debate. Should Governors have a say in border changes as Governors or merely as members of the House and nothing more?

 

[Cyc]

"All of the Citizens" are what is meant by the "House". (a.k.a. "The House of the People".)

Okay, debate. Should Governors have a say in border changes as Governors or merely as members of the House and nothing more?

OK, I let this go as I have seen Provincial Border changes happen harmoniously in Demogames before. To begin with, Border changes don't normally make it to the polls for people to vote on unless the Governors get together and arrange the change before hand. Then it's up to the will of the people to get the change approved. The Constitution doesn't specifically say that Governors can "readjust" their borders, but then again it doesn't say they can't. What it does say in Article E is:

Articl E ~
 They will advise the citizens of the state of their individual
                 provinces, any concerns there may be for said provinces,
                 and enumerate any goals they envision for their provinces.

I can see readjusting Provincial borders as a goal of the Province. So, two or three Governors getting together and working a readjustment of their common borders and then presenting this plan (goal) is not out of the question here.

Article O ~
These boundries must be defined and approved by the House well ahead 
                of expansion, and may extend beyond the cultural boundaries.

Article O states that the citizens as a whole define and approve the borders. Of course this is in reference to all initial Provincial borders. But the concept of the people (House) determining the final product is evident.

Looking at the proposed poll, the Section in question:

D: Provincial Boundaries may be readjusted with concent of the affected
   Governors and the House.

other than changing the spelling of consent, I would think the above line's intent falls within the principles I have mentioned above. Basically, a plan put together with the consent of all effected Governors can be presented to the people (House) for approval. Works for me anyway.

 

[Sir Donald III]

All right, so the Governors can propose Border changes and the People Ratify. That part is good.

Now, for the other half:

Should the People readjust the borders against the wishes of the affeccted Governors? And are there any cases where such a change would be a reasonable consideration?

 

[Cyc]

In DG1, there was a guy named disorganizer. He was our initial census guy, very involved with the playing of the game, but never ran for office (that I remember). He also helped with the Constitution. Anyway we were using a plan where all provinces had approximately 126 land tiles and had 10 maybe 11 Provinces mapped out. Well disorganizer, who lived in my Province of Kashmir wanted (if I'm remembering this right) a city in Eklektikos' Province of Asphinxia to be moved into our Province so he could become Lord Mayor, etc. He went to Governor Eklektikos and proposed a tile swapping plan to him, in which his Province and mine would shift borders. They haggled a bit and came up with a suitable proposal to offer to me. I saw nothing wrong with the proposal, in fact I liked it, so I agreed to the change. We both lost some tiles, and we both gined some tiles. So the Governor part was done. Then we ran the proposal past the people (I believe they were called the Congress then) an they approved it via a poll. Then we changed the map. It was that simple. A citizen initiated the whole thing, but took it to the Govs to get their approval. Then the people authorized the change.

Later, disorganizer put together another proposal, which extended the land-bound borders out into the sea tiles, as the coastal cities actually used those tiles. No land borders were changed, so no Governor lost or gained anything. So disorganizer took the proposal straight to the Citizen's subforum for a discussion. It was generally accepted and a polling of the people authorized the cosmetic change (of including coastal and sea tiles). The Provincial borders map was again changed. No bloody noses and two major changes. Everything worked out fine. Both were initiated by a citizen and approved by the people. Where a Governor's Province actually saw a change in land area, they were brought in for initial approval.

So I would say that the people would be allowed to make cosmetic changes to the Provincial borders map, but if any of the Governors were affected by the change, they would need to be brought in for initial consultation and approval. They are, after all, in charge of their individual Provinces.

And again, I believe that D. (above) covers this well.

 

[Sir Donald III]

Thanks, Mr. CJ. I'll send up the PP for JR now.

 

[Octavian X]

1: Initially, a Territory is administered by the Governor of the Province the Territory was a former part of.

I don't know why, but that sounds a bit ambiguous to me. It may sound clear to everyone else, but I think there might be some future confusion on just what territory came from what province. I'd like to suggest a slight adjustment for clarity's sake.

1. Initially, a Territory shall administered by the Governor of a bordering Province. If the Territory borders two or more provinces, the Minister of Domestic Affairs shall assign the Territory's administration to one of the bordering Provinces. If the Territory does not border any existing province, the Minister of Domestic Affairs shall administer the Territory.

Otherwise, everything else looks good.

 

[Sir Donald III]

Well, Mister Judge Advocate, I envisioned a Terriroty to be formed entirely out of a single former Province. However, I can see now that territories can be formed from parts of 2 or more Provinces, with approval of all affected Governors as per Subsection D.

Couldn't you have said something a little eariler? Drat. Looks liek I'll have to rescind my JR Request for 24 more hours...

How about this:

1: Initially, a Territory is administered by the Governor of the Province the Territory was a former part of. If the Territory was formed from portions of multiple Provinces, then each individual city would be administered by the Governor of the Province it formerly belonged to. New cities within such a territory would be administered by the Domestic Minister.

I guess this means that we may have to restart here... :shakehead:

 

[Cyc]

So are you going to post a revision, or just reword the line in the Proposed Poll on the prior page?

EDIT: Actually, as I've just read your post above, SD3, I like Octavian's wording a bit better. It's not so complicated.

 

[Octavian X]

I apoligize, Mr. Minister, for the inconvience, though I hope it will save us trouble later down the line.

 

[Sir Donald III]

I agree, Mr. JA. Better to spot problems before we hit the "Make New Poll" button, than having a dozen JRs come at us for oversights we should've caught.

The problem is that what Octavian says =/= what I say. Octavian says "bordering Provinces". I say Provinces the Territory was formerly a part of.

And, save for any overseas Jaunts, ALL Territories will border a Province, because of Section B.

B: In the beginning of the game, a default Province shall be established and a Governor installed by election therein. This First Province shall contain all lands that are part of the Japanatican Nation until other Provinces are formed, and has at its Capital the First Established City.

So, by definition, New Provinces that are on our continent border old provinces by default.

Perhaps a full change in Section C is in order:

C: Territories shall be formed by the House devising "Boundary Lines" within established Provinces. Ratification by the People is required before these boundaries have effect. The minimum size of these Territories should be a space large enough to fit 3 cities at full Temple Radius.
1: Initially, a Territory is administered by the Governor of the Province the Territory was a former part of.
1: Once a Territory has at least three (3) towns or has at least 50% of the land within the entire territory under Japatanica's Cultural Borders, then it becomes a Full Province with its own Governor.
a: Until this happens, administration of towns within the territory are retained by the Governors of their respective former Provinces. Administration of New Towns formed before the limit is achieved will be under the control of the Domestic Minister.
b: Governors of new Provinces will be appointed by the President, under recommendations from the Domestic Minister. These appointments will last only until the end of the current term, and be subject to Section G of the Code of Laws.

And a new section I just thought about:

Section C1 continued:
c: Cities that have persons whose Nation of Origin the Japanatican Nation is at War against will not count towards the 3 City minimum during such a state of War.

This prevents Provinces from becomming unnaturally small due to "Resistance Defections".

 

[Cyc]

Section C1 continued:
c: Cities that have persons whose Nation of Origin the Japanatican Nation is at War against will not count towards the 3 City minimum during such a state of War.

Nah, I don't want to be rating a city's (or Province's) eligibility on ethnic classification. If we take a city, it's ours. No profiling.

 

[Sir Donald III]

This is a proposed Poll for an ammendment to the Code of Laws. This ammendment covers the formation of new Provinces under Article O of the Constitution. Please review the legislation carefully before voting.

Section O(1)

A: All land that is not within or surrounded by the Cultural Boundaries of another nation may be considered as part of the Japanatican Nation.

B: In the beginning of the game, a default Province shall be established and a Governor installed by election therein. This First Province shall contain all lands that are part of the Japanatican Nation until other Provinces are formed, and has at its Capital the First Established City.

C: Territories shall be formed by the House devising "Boundary Lines" within established Provinces. Ratification by the People is required before these boundaries have effect. The minimum size of these Territories should be a space large enough to fit 3 cities at full Temple Radius.
1: Once a Territory has at least three (3) towns or has at least 50% of the land within the entire territory under Japatanica's Cultural Borders, then it becomes a Full Province with its own Governor.
a: Until this happens, administration of towns within the territory are retained by the Governors of their respective former Provinces. Administration of New Towns formed before the limit is achieved will be under the control of the Domestic Minister.
b: Governors of new Provinces will be appointed by the President, under recommendations from the Domestic Minister. These appointments will last only until the end of the current term, and be subject to Section G of the Code of Laws.

D: Provincial Boundaries may be readjusted with consent of the affected Governors and the House.

Please vote one of the following options:

YES: I approve of this Section
NO: I do not approve of this section
ABSTAIN: No opinion.


This Poll will last 72 Hours and be subject to Section I(1) of the Code of Laws.


Okay, guys... Need Second and Third here. And let's get this thing to poll before I have to flee to Tennessee.

 

[Cyc]

I'll second this proposal.

 

[Black_Hole]

I third the above proposal

 

[Cyc]

The Poll has been posted!

PLEASE GO VOTE!