Procylon's Call to Power Project

[Decimatus]

I am trying to get more ideas, in another thread, hope you dont mind? I have posted your Tech Tree as an "example." Great work btw

Its fine, you can use it all you want as long as you credit me.

 

[strategyonly]

Its fine, you can use it all you want as long as you credit me.

Right now its just showing people whats there and trying to get idea's of adding new era's and tech tree incorporation and policies

 

[chicadee987]

Played in epic speed at v4.. Started a new game with v5 and early game seems to be more balanced now.. Ill let you know if I find issues..

 

[danielshannon]

I'd like to see some of Alpha Centauri's future society social engineering choices as social policy trees.

Cybernetic - a transhumanism tree that would be incompatible with Piety and Tradition

Eudaimonic - a "futuristic paradise where resource scarcity is no longer a concern and every human is free to fulfill their intellectual/artistic potential" tree that would be incompatible with honor, order, and autocracy

Thought Control - futuristic totalitarian technocratic dictatorship tree that would be incompatible with freedom and liberty

 

[Decimatus]

I'd like to see some of Alpha Centauri's future society social engineering choices as social policy trees.

Cybernetic - a transhumanism tree that would be incompatible with Piety and Tradition

Eudaimonic - a "futuristic paradise where resource scarcity is no longer a concern and every human is free to fulfill their intellectual/artistic potential" tree that would be incompatible with honor, order, and autocracy

Thought Control - futuristic totalitarian technocratic dictatorship tree that would be incompatible with freedom and liberty

My plans for the social policy system completely transcend what the devs implemented.

Check out the first post for a list of things that I already have in mind. Still a work in progress of course.

Call to Power did have mind control though, and the AI entity, so I will definitely be implementing some things along those lines, probably in multiple areas.

Futuristic policies are going to take a lot of hard thinking though. The Eudaimonic thing sounds more like a great leap in technology and less as a form of government or ideology.

Current plans for future governments include Virtual Democracy, Technocracy, Corporate, and Ecotopia. Possibly have some hive mind and AI government types in there too. Future government systems and ideologies might be related to AI, genetic, cybernetic, environmental, etc concepts.

Played in epic speed at v4.. Started a new game with v5 and early game seems to be more balanced now.. Ill let you know if I find issues..

Good, let me know how it turns out.

 

[JSnider]

Think this has already been reported .. not sure, playing with v5 and at start could research UAV, cost was couple 1000 turns but there. Then got it from a goody hut and tada in the modern age. Also on the tech selector at the left edge of the screen it and other techs (ballistic and carriage if recall) show up multiple times. I'll try to pull v5 down again just to be sure didn't lose something in the ether.
Also think ther should be an option from the start not to build anything .. maybe put a dummy sink in that select to build that is nothing. At the point where really can't afford anything else or will run out of funds yet can't stop bldg.

 

[Decimatus]

Think this has already been reported .. not sure, playing with v5 and at start could research UAV, cost was couple 1000 turns but there. Then got it from a goody hut and tada in the modern age. Also on the tech selector at the left edge of the screen it and other techs (ballistic and carriage if recall) show up multiple times. I'll try to pull v5 down again just to be sure didn't lose something in the ether.
Also think ther should be an option from the start not to build anything .. maybe put a dummy sink in that select to build that is nothing. At the point where really can't afford anything else or will run out of funds yet can't stop bldg.

Weird, people reported this at V4 launch too.

I had them delete my mod and download it again. Seemed to fix it for them. Not sure what is causing it, but UAV is a recurring theme. UAV is no longer in my game, as it was renamed Unmanned Aircraft. So I have to guess that you upgraded from V3? There could be some kind of conflict with the upgrade.


You are right about the early production sink. What do you guys think? Make a 10% production to food sink? Yeah you have enough food hehe. Unfortunately culture isn't a yield or I would add a 10% culture process with Mysticism or something.

I will see about adding in a 10% gold yield, or making a slave unit that can be sacrificed like a great engineer for some small production boost to a city. Or both.

 

[chicadee987]

Situation so far:
ROME
CONTINENTS
PRINCE
EPIC
INDUSTRIAL ERA(ca.1400)

------

This issue has arised propably because of increased productivity in the early game:
The AI doesn´t seem to know how to evaluate true military strength. It masses too many early units(classical era) which make the army value boom. Trusting it´s higher army strength it seems to underestimate the threat of 3rd parties and declared war where he withraws practicly all forces from border. 3rd part should be seen potentially hostile and treated as such(has refused research agreements, open borders and other trading. Also has massive armies ´guarding´ borders).

Mostly because of vanilla AI:
AI which is at war with stronger enemy decides to keep attacking city state which is allied to 3rd party. The 3rd party has declared hostility by saing "you will regret..". The 3rd party(obviously me ) has blocked all attacks to the city state by surrounding it´s nearby hexes. AI uses a culture bomb to kick 3rd party armies away w/o evaluating how 3rd party will react(instant declaration of war ).

I know these are caused by the vanilla AI and I don´t know if they can be fixed in a short term. However, AI favors massive armies at expence of technological advance in the classical era which is fatal for long term development(atleast with this mod). AI seldom uses these troops other than border guarding(atleast in prince level(which imo should be the basic playing level). I think AI should be tweaked to favor walls, defensive army structure with moderate horses for classical era.

In the end problem is propably more about how the AI handles war in both mikro and makro levels(doesn´t wall pikes/spears, doesn´t evaluate the effect of production and income differences(which aren´t such a big thing in vanilla game), doesn´t know seem to know the difference of tactical retreat(list goes on forever).

One more thing(which you prolly are aware of):
Wonder quotes aren´t situated in proper place(new wonders).

 

[Decimatus]

Situation so far:
ROME
CONTINENTS
PRINCE
EPIC
MODERN ERA(ca.1350)

------

This issue has arised propably because of increased productivity in the early game:
The AI doesn´t seem to know how to evaluate true military strength. It masses too many early units(classical era) which make the army value boom. Trusting it´s higher army strength it seems to underestimate the threat of 3rd parties and declared war where he withraws practicly all forces from border. 3rd part should be seen potentially hostile and treated as such(has refused research agreements, open borders and other trading. Also has massive armies ´guarding´ borders).

Mostly because of vanilla AI:
AI which is at war with stronger enemy decides to keep attacking city state which is allied to 3rd party. The 3rd party has declared hostility by saing "you will regret..". The 3rd party(obviously me ) has blocked all attacks to the city state by surrounding it´s nearby hexes. AI uses a culture bomb to kick 3rd party armies away w/o evaluating how 3rd party will react(instant declaration of war ).

I know these are caused by the vanilla AI and I don´t know if they can be fixed in a short term. However, AI favors massive armies at expence of technological advance in the classical era which is fatal for long term development(atleast with this mod). AI seldom uses these troops other than border guarding(atleast in prince level(which imo should be the basic playing level). I think AI should be tweaked to favor walls, defensive army structure with moderate horses for classical era.

In the end problem is propably more about how the AI handles war in both mikro and makro levels(doesn´t wall pikes/spears, doesn´t evaluate the effect of production and income differences(which aren´t such a big thing in vanilla game), doesn´t know seem to know the difference of tactical retreat(list goes on forever).

One more thing(which you prolly are aware of):
Wonder quotes aren´t situated in proper place(new wonders).

Yeah the AI has some problems, and unfortunately I can not address many of them, especially combat related.

It is one reason that I have not touched the AI, because I trust other modders to do a much better job at it than myself. Just about any AI mod should be compatible with my own.

If you could answer some questions I would appreciate it:
You hit Modern in ~1350, did you beeline to the a modern tech or did you research 75-90% of the techs that came before it?
Did you focus entirely only science specialists, great scientists, etc?
How many cities did you build?
What map size?
Roughly how many luxury goods did you have access to?


And yeah I hope to have a fix to the wonder text issue for V6. I keep forgetting about it, but I have it written down now.

 

[chicadee987]

Yeah the AI has some problems, and unfortunately I can not address many of them, especially combat related.

It is one reason that I have not touched the AI, because I trust other modders to do a much better job at it than myself. Just about any AI mod should be compatible with my own.

If you could answer some questions I would appreciate it:
You hit Modern in ~1350, did you beeline to the a modern tech or did you research 75-90% of the techs that came before it?
Did you focus entirely only science specialists, great scientists, etc?
How many cities did you build?
What map size?
Roughly how many luxury goods did you have access to?


And yeah I hope to have a fix to the wonder text issue for V6. I keep forgetting about it, but I have it written down now.

I´m playing with huge map.. I hit industrial era at ca. 1400 and ca.1500 I reached modern era.. I´m focusing on scisntists after reaching a point where my happiness went below 0 OR city can´t work on a tile.. Money income / hurry price ratio seems to be better now as I can hardly hurry new buildings to capital at the current point.

I Built 4 cities asap and kept expanding when didnt feel it´s hurting my wanted wonder/library/abbey builds.. I quit expanding after I ran out of good spots in the continent.. Had total of 10 cities at that point. My early game:

Capital builds worker and then monument.. By the time when capital grew to size 3 or 4 and then it started pushing settlers. 1st new city tries to build labyrith(for money returned). Next ones go for monument, warrior,monument. All cities were production favored while I mainly built farms(next to river) to support capitals growth.

I had a cotton and gems near my capital, but I went to plantation tech moderately late(middle ages or near). Later expansion gave me silver and I got whales from city state.

As social policy I picked:
Liberty-> Meritocracy. Honor-> Military caste. Freedom->Civil society-> Free speech-> Democracy. Rationalism-> Secularism. Order-> Planned econ.


Tech route(Ill skip the techs that were on the way that I wanted): Mining, Mysticism, Polyteism, Writing, Bronze working, Wheel, Prieshood, Horseback riding, Contruction, Chivalry, Feodalism, Civil service(bulbed), Engineering, Algebra, Education, Calculus(bulbed), Astronomy, Printing press, Blast furnace, Military tradition.
1st GS bulbed iron working(~20 turns at that point)!

Speaking of AI.. I merely said those issues because I don´t believe it´s possible to use some AI mod that has been made for vanilla game. This mod has very different rhytm than the vanilla and has to be played differently(units are expendable).

Tired of writing, over and out(back to the game )

 

[ikillu64]

Thanks.

What speed and mapsize did you play on? And how many cities?

Most games I play use tons of great scientists and I still have to research the majority of the techs. Also, the tech era and the date usually match up pretty well.

Great engineer improvements now give about +24 production by the end of the game. If you have too many, plop them down on your deserts and tundras.

I have never seen an AI launch a nuke in either vanilla or my mod either. I might look into this down the road, but in general I plan on making nukes quite a bit more expensive anyway.

The cost difference between units should actually be apparent in V5, so cheaper units will be worthwhile. Also, since mass driver artillery will require an advanced auto plant, you can build micro UAV teams in other cities that don't have them.

I don't understand, there was a submarine where? In 1 hex you wanted to move into? A ground hex?

I might create a new line of worker, but it is hard to make a new unit that is noticeably different due to the fact that the current worker gets so many bonuses throughout the eras that he is pretty fast by the endgame. If I change this I would likely need to revamp the entire worker system. Maybe someday, but not anytime soon.


Thanks for your feedback.

Sorry for late response. I played on huge map, marathon, and had 6 or 7 cities. OK, about the submarine. I was at war with Germany. I told my gauss tank to attack the city. When I did that it asked if I wanted to go to war with Arabia. I said no, and was wondering why. Then I saw the GERMAN city had an ARABIAN submarine in it. The city was not on the shore, so the submarine could not move. I had to either go to war with Arabia or not attack. I like the idea with the new, different types of plants. It will work much better than now. I'm going to go to sleep, but when I wake up I will try out V5, can't wait!

 

[Catastrophe90]

Then I saw the GERMAN city had an ARABIAN submarine in it. The city was not on the shore, so the submarine could not move.

Ever tried gifting a Battleship to a land-locked City State? Try it. It's hilarious. The Battleship is stuck on the city tile (can still fire though, so it's a super turret). I wonder what would happen if I gift 2 of them? Hmm....

Also, it's relatively easy to get Industrial/Modern in the 1400s, since you can just plop Academies everywhere, beeline Physics/Calculus/Algebra (I think those are the ones) since they are one after the other and end up with +12 BPT Academies. I can usually get around 5-6 of them (since there are much more specialist slots and Wonders that give GS points) in a science city with National College/Library/University, so that's around +180-216 BPT, which shortens most research times by something around 5-6 turns for each tech.

 

[Decimatus]

I have a feeling that your submarine could have been in an ocean tile that graphically appeared as a land tile, but wasn't.

I have only seen these types of bugs happen when I use the tectonics mod for a better map layout, but I am sure they exist in many map mods in addition to the vanilla game.

And of course, there is the ever present graphical anomaly that shows a unit in one hex when it is really next door. Though this doesn't sound like your current problem.


Hitting industrial at 1400 isn't too horrible actually, especially if you blitzed straight to it.

Can you guys give me a good estimate of when you had a majority of the industrial era researched for instance? Same for modern?

Also, I might warn you guys that pumping eras isn't AS beneficial in my mod as it is in Vanilla. Many cases yes, but not all, especially production.

 

[chicadee987]

Missile squad info tect says its upgrade to machine gunner but machine gunner cant be upgraded to missile squad.

 

[Buddha2723]

A quick prince renaissance game is about to be discussed. And much number crunching on the balance side of things. Also a number of measly to ambitious suggestions. You have been warned.

Having tested through medieval on V4 and knowing the balance was good I started later, with Bismarck and 12 opponents. Renaissance balance was very good with one exception. When facing three cannon with pikeman + longswordsman frontline troops my full health lancers and longswordsman were killed with one shot before getting into action, on flat terrain as well as on the only hill available. If they weren't the weakest nation they would have conquered my nearby city despite my superior army, just because it was within 3 squares of their city with the cannon. I feel like renaissance era wonders should start a gradual increase in wonder cost, so even the best city will not knock down a wonder easily. I think +50% cost in every successive era(i.e. +150% current cost for modern wonders) is about right.

Specific renaissance proposals-Cannon now 2 range(maybe even 1, starts with range) +50% cost 24 Ranged and 16 normal STR(grapeshot was no joke); windmill nerf to 10%, maint. 1; Machine gun-+80% cost, 0-range, starts with range, 30 normal and 20 ranged STR(reasoning=more soldiers died charging MG's than from bombardment, 1 range max so it can never attack ocean vessels, only coastal); new unit- 'no mans land' 10 STR, 1 move(represents barbed wire and mines out in front of machine gun nests and infantry in trenches; guild halls broken, at current cost should be 5% bonuses, lower maint to 0 or 1 compensate. Longswrordsman is way cheaper than musketman, I think 200-250 cost on normal speed is better for both, with a longswordsman's plate armor plus sword more expensive than a musket + musket balls.

Non era specific balance changes-diplomacy can get crazy, and it's a little too easy to get and keep city state allies on normal(prince), so I recommend the following changes to the gift table-1000 gold for 10 influence, 2500 gold for 30, and 5000 for 75. Hard to get but easy to keep early game, harder to steal late, is how I think this will work. Great people are a little too common. Doubling the points they take might be a good fix.

Industrial-Enemy nations were nipping at my heels technologically, but were way behind everywhere, except military in a few cases, at the beginning of this era. Unfortunately no major conflicts occurred from this point on, so only economy tweaks are offered past this point. Major unbalancers seemed to be the hospital-med lab combo, the 30% food building, and oil refinery is badly broken. My production and gold began to climb too fast after filling up my cities with industrial era buildings.

Industrial specific changes-Oil refinery-double intial cost and nerfed to 10% gold/production bonus; food building greater than 10% now give food = maint. cost; hospital and med lab nerfed to 10-20% food kept; production buildings greater than 10%(exc. factory) now gives bonus for a specific unit(i.e. auto plant-tank, shipyard-battleship, etc.) which may need to be up to doubled in cost. The main effect is to make the build much more efficient than the buy for certain units. I would propose a new mathematical system for unit prices to ensure balance and keep armies in groups rather than rivers. At normal speed, a unit should be 100*STR or 150*Ranged STR, modified by +500 per move beyond 2, +200 per range beyond 2, +? for starting promotions/abilities, and further modified at the end by 1.5* for artillery and cavalry, 2* for fighters, and 2.5* missile and bomber(5-10* nukes).

Post-industrial changes-It looks like gold is heading to be a problem. I think multiplying your gold per person by 2.5 and rounding up is the key(i.e. 1 gold per 2 pop is now per 5 pop). For 1 gold per pop and better buildings I think you should change them to higher cost, no maint. buildings, that give gold on a progression, +5, +10, etc.(i.e. cell towers now +10 gold, no maint) I think you should save 1 gold per pop for early nano, and +2 gold per pop for late nano. Hopefully these changes collectively give a more fair game on normal, but going any farther would put the player at a disadvantage when better AI comes along. I will add a few more of the new ideas(not fixes) that I didn't get to here in a new post shortly.

Picture notes: beginning and end demographics for industrial, as well as early industrial map of my Germany and her 10 cities.

 

[Buddha2723]

continued...

Forgotten suggestions- 'no mans land' is modeled after anti aircraft guns in that it can't attack, and can intercept 0-1 range away(thin line of aa behind wire); tanks should now have blitz as historically they smashed through barbed wire, then hit MG nests, while infanty cleared the trenches of other infantry. Mass transit and recycling center cost is equal, should nerf mass transit or cheapen recycling. Certain buildings of great benefit(cell towers, drug store) should be up to double the cost of their contemporary counterparts. I think you should double or triple the golden age cost, I had a near perpetual golden age and I didn't micromanage to make sure I had specialist not citizens, so it could have been worse.

For productions sinks pre-currency I recommend building of no benefit, that can be built then sold, in the following order (tech required/name of building/cost of building compared to contemporary buildings)
Mysticism/Bonfire/.5x
Mysticism/Stage/2x
Archery/Stands/3x
Ballistics/Parade Ground/4x
Carriages/Racetrack/5x
Compass/Warehouses/10x

A bigger issue in this mod than in vanilla ciV is the nation powers. In particular Germany, Greece, Ottoman, Songhai, English, French, Arabian, and Aztec are too weak or inconsistent, while the Romans, the Siamese, India, and possible Russia are too powerful.
Recommendations, if at all possible
Germany-+5-10% production in the capital, or gains extra exp. after capturing an encampment
Greece-Non ranged unit with no friendlies around gets +20% STR or +15% STR during golden age
Ottoman-+2 happiness per puppet city
Songhai-1000 gold from barbarian camp or 50% chance 500 + unit
English-half cost great artists or +2 gold per trade route
French-capital gets +20-25% production for wonders or +1 culture per city(or per lux. resource)
Arabian-2 gold per trade route or half cost great merchants or 2x trade mission yield
Aztec-increase current power or -10% maint. costs or specialists 90% unhappiness penalty
Roman-+2 production from wheat and marble or +1 production per luxury resource
Siamese-+1 culture per city or double happiness from lux. resources
India-specialists 90% unhappiness penalty or +1 food from strategic(and/or lux.) resources

Hopefully many of these ideas prove beneficial. Thanks for reading.

 

[chicadee987]

Foundry text says it requires 1 iron but takes 2.
Helicopter gunships CAN capture cityes(vanilla bug?)

 

[Decimatus]

Missile squad info tect says its upgrade to machine gunner but machine gunner cant be upgraded to missile squad.

Yeah and this really pisses me off. lol Just reached that point in my test game and confirmed. I couldn't see anything especially wrong in the code, so I am going to have to dig some more.

Foundry text says it requires 1 iron but takes 2.
Helicopter gunships CAN capture cityes(vanilla bug?)

I noticed this as well. I will probably change it to 1, and add more iron buildings at some point.

I haven't given gunships that ability so I would assume Vanilla. Never tried to capture with a gunship in either version yet though. Anyone know?

Thanks for the reports.

Having tested through medieval on V4 and knowing the balance was good I started later, with Bismarck and 12 opponents. Renaissance balance was very good with one exception. When facing three cannon with pikeman + longswordsman frontline troops my full health lancers and longswordsman were killed with one shot before getting into action, on flat terrain as well as on the only hill available. If they weren't the weakest nation they would have conquered my nearby city despite my superior army, just because it was within 3 squares of their city with the cannon. I feel like renaissance era wonders should start a gradual increase in wonder cost, so even the best city will not knock down a wonder easily. I think +50% cost in every successive era(i.e. +150% current cost for modern wonders) is about right.

I might drop the cannons a bit so that they almost kill those units instead of outright kill them. Do you know if the cannons had any promotions or great generals?

I will take a look at renaissance wonders. I did increase build costs(for wonders and buildings) post renaissance, so let me know what you think for modern and above.

Specific renaissance proposals-Cannon now 2 range(maybe even 1, starts with range) +50% cost 24 Ranged and 16 normal STR(grapeshot was no joke); windmill nerf to 10%, maint. 1; Machine gun-+80% cost, 0-range, starts with range, 30 normal and 20 ranged STR(reasoning=more soldiers died charging MG's than from bombardment, 1 range max so it can never attack ocean vessels, only coastal); new unit- 'no mans land' 10 STR, 1 move(represents barbed wire and mines out in front of machine gun nests and infantry in trenches; guild halls broken, at current cost should be 5% bonuses, lower maint to 0 or 1 compensate. Longswrordsman is way cheaper than musketman, I think 200-250 cost on normal speed is better for both, with a longswordsman's plate armor plus sword more expensive than a musket + musket balls.

Non era specific balance changes-diplomacy can get crazy, and it's a little too easy to get and keep city state allies on normal(prince), so I recommend the following changes to the gift table-1000 gold for 10 influence, 2500 gold for 30, and 5000 for 75. Hard to get but easy to keep early game, harder to steal late, is how I think this will work. Great people are a little too common. Doubling the points they take might be a good fix.

Industrial-Enemy nations were nipping at my heels technologically, but were way behind everywhere, except military in a few cases, at the beginning of this era. Unfortunately no major conflicts occurred from this point on, so only economy tweaks are offered past this point. Major unbalancers seemed to be the hospital-med lab combo, the 30% food building, and oil refinery is badly broken. My production and gold began to climb too fast after filling up my cities with industrial era buildings.

Industrial specific changes-Oil refinery-double intial cost and nerfed to 10% gold/production bonus; food building greater than 10% now give food = maint. cost; hospital and med lab nerfed to 10-20% food kept; production buildings greater than 10%(exc. factory) now gives bonus for a specific unit(i.e. auto plant-tank, shipyard-battleship, etc.) which may need to be up to doubled in cost. The main effect is to make the build much more efficient than the buy for certain units. I would propose a new mathematical system for unit prices to ensure balance and keep armies in groups rather than rivers. At normal speed, a unit should be 100*STR or 150*Ranged STR, modified by +500 per move beyond 2, +200 per range beyond 2, +? for starting promotions/abilities, and further modified at the end by 1.5* for artillery and cavalry, 2* for fighters, and 2.5* missile and bomber(5-10* nukes).

Post-industrial changes-It looks like gold is heading to be a problem. I think multiplying your gold per person by 2.5 and rounding up is the key(i.e. 1 gold per 2 pop is now per 5 pop). For 1 gold per pop and better buildings I think you should change them to higher cost, no maint. buildings, that give gold on a progression, +5, +10, etc.(i.e. cell towers now +10 gold, no maint) I think you should save 1 gold per pop for early nano, and +2 gold per pop for late nano. Hopefully these changes collectively give a more fair game on normal, but going any farther would put the player at a disadvantage when better AI comes along. I will add a few more of the new ideas(not fixes) that I didn't get to here in a new post shortly.

Picture notes: beginning and end demographics for industrial, as well as early industrial map of my Germany and her 10 cities.

Some good feedback here. Not sure if I have time to respond point by point, but I might come back tomorrow or after to respond. I will definitely take some of these things into advisement, and the numbers are good for reference.

Some things I will say though. Certain things like diplomacy, city states, policies, etc are surely out of balance right now, but I won't really get to them until I settle some other things that I am working on and get to balancing them. They are on my mind though.

Also, if you see a vast increase in everything beginning in the industrial era it is because I want it to actually be an industrial revolution and not just another era you plod through.

That said, I do still have quite a lot of balancing to do, so keep the feedback coming.

 

[ikillu64]

Ever tried gifting a Battleship to a land-locked City State? Try it. It's hilarious. The Battleship is stuck on the city tile (can still fire though, so it's a super turret). I wonder what would happen if I gift 2 of them? Hmm....

LOL! I have never tried that. I'm going to do it right now except with DDX destryers MUHAHHAHAHAHA!

 

[chicadee987]

Im currently in digital era. Happiness level is near 1k and my turnly income is 30k(during golden ages which Im most likely to spend rest of my game) after spendings. Capitals size is now 60. AI should be tweaked to favour city growth now as there are so many building that give population based bonuses. Game was rather balanced(if mot counted the issues which have been mentioned before in the thread) until reneisance where I was able to make technological run away.