Project: Arda Mod (LOTR)

[thomas.berubeg]

Thanks alot... i think it would be nice to have the leader of the civ out on the feild of battle...

 

[Arexack_heretic]

and 'game over' if he/she gets killed?

unique units based on leader:
I think the best way to make units dependent on leaders, is to make the unit require a certain leadertrait.
The trait could give a tech for free if neccesary, but I'd guess the thing can be handled by python.

 

[Elda King]

Hey I heard you are looking for C++ and Pyth people, well I am new to Civ IV and looking for challenges in the modding side of things - I have started my own project, but should still have a few drips and drabs of time to help out a little here - I am no big knowledgeable guru on either Arda or Civ IV, but I can carry my own with C++ and Pyth (XML, well I could probably drag a 747 a couple of city blocks).
Glad to meet you all!

TRN2

Great, any help is welcome, and we really need programmers.

The problem with having "king" units is exactly that, what would happen if he's killed. Civ3 had a Regicide victory condition, but Civ4 not. Another problem would be to balance it, leaders like Aragorn would be stronger than Freca (what to say about Saruman, or Morgoth?).

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Hey, are you back?

 

[TRN2]

Great, any help is welcome, and we really need programmers.

by the looks of it your not alone

what would happen if he's killed.

some ideas that spring to my mind is that you could make some morale rules, an example of this would be all units with-in # squares suffer 50% damage that takes longer than usual to restore (nasty arn't I...)

Civ3 had a Regicide victory condition

if you check my other posts, you will see I am in the middle of figuring out the custom victory conditions part, might be able to include something like this (might).

Another problem would be to balance it

yeah - it'll need a bit of thought.

 

[Elda King]

Well, I'm back now, and had a week with a lot of time to think about the mod.
I selected most leaders thinking about what people should be leaders, and what people should be heroes. So I decided to don't have Fingolfin and Túrin as leaders, for example, because I wanted them as heroes; Saruman is the exception, as thomas.berubeg convinced me that the dunlendings should have a more "evil" side in the third age. The only leader I expected to have as a actual unit was Sauron, who would respawn (weaker) after some turns.
But this idea of Morale would be great, and I just remembered I read about the Alexander scenario of Warlords and it had a Alexander unit (great genneral) who didn't die, just was wounded and went back to its capital. We could do it, combined with the idea of Morale (FFH has one immortal promo that we could use).

 

[TRN2]

for me it is always so easy to say, yet so hard to code, I'd best start researching how it is done

 

[Arexack_heretic]

yeah, defeating Sauron's empire should require destroying him.

Sauron can only be truly destroyed if the ring is destroyed.

First You'd need to destroy Sauron once to obtain 'the One Ring' a 'unit' that
can be carried around by heros.

To destroy the Ring, one must carry it to Mount Doom.
Ones best bet is to use a stealthy, but fairly uncorruptible unit.

Because: Every turn the Ring gets a chance to corrupt the carrier:
-this is a random roll agains a 'morality' value.
-If it wins once, Sauron gets a location 'ping'.
-If it wins the turn after that, Sauron gets to see the the surroundings of the carrier. (FogOfWar is lifted).
-If it wins trice, the unit is corrupted and now belongs to Sauron.

Don't know how one would code the carrying to MountDoom bit though...probably a bit of scenario scripting, with Mount Doom as a WorldWonder built by Sauron upon creating the rings.

---

Offcourse Sauron needs to forge the rings in an earlier age in the first place.

-Giving Rings to the greatest of Men, Dwarves and Elven kin first, making them stronger...
for a while... untill the OneRing is forged and a new Age begun.

 

[Love]

What about, only a hobbit can carry the ring and thats only frodo and bilbo? Well, it can be a promotion "ringbearer", what about it?

 

[TRN2]

Because: Every turn the Ring gets a chance to corrupt the carrier:
-this is a random roll agains a 'morality' value.
-If it wins once, Sauron gets a location 'ping'.
-If it wins the turn after that, Sauron gets to see the the surroundings of the carrier. (FogOfWar is lifted).
-If it wins trice, the unit is corrupted and now belongs to Sauron.

Nice idea

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Nice idea

Agreed

Sauron can only be truly destroyed if the ring is destroyed

maybe the ring should maybe come into appearance at a certain stage in the Suaron avatar appearance... if the shadow gets lucky, and never losses the earliest sauron, then the ring never gets created, though i don't see this happening, if we make the shadow at constant war with other civs...

i also think the ring should call "evil to it": when the shadow has the ring in it's city, evry turn, it has the chance to spawn a unit (randomized, depending on the player's advancement)

 

[thomas.berubeg]

here is what i have up to now: it now CTDs just after loading the uncahced XML i'm putting it here in case someone can fix it... i cant

Lotr CTD

 

[Crezth]

I have read some three pages of this topic, and I must say it is very interesting. I am not up to the daunting task of reading the whole of the topic, but I'd like to voice my opinion on the hobbits/Isengard issue.

I notice it was said that the hobbits were not important enough. However, to say such a thing is to be contrary to Tolkien. Tolkien's intention in LOTR was to present that even small, insignificant beings have an enormous impact on history. It was a hobbit that forever banished evil, it were hobbits that fought back the last association of orcs in the Shire and outwards, and it was a hobbit that essentially brought about Isengard's doom. In my opinion, to leave out the hobbits as an civilization is criminal. At least, they ought to be a minor civ, dedicated to a peaceful, agrarian lifestyle (possibly, the ability to create for themselves resources? i.e., Hobbit Farmers could create Wine on a tile. Just pitching.) with trade and prosperity. Then again, maybe not, but alas.

As for Isengard, I think perhaps they could be a Civilization of the Shadow as well, being that however you phrase it Isengard was still an independant culture from that of Sauron, even though subservient, like a vassal state. Perhaps culture is the wrong word, but my point should stand clear - Saruman had every intention to increase his own power, not Sauron's, and had every intention to stab Sauron in the back. The Isengarders may be lumped in with Sauron, but I don't think that'd be very accurate.

To truly make this mod as, well, true to Tolkien, one must take into account that Tolkien's stories and civilizations and alliances went deeper than Bad vs. Good, for Bad was also vs. Bad, and Good was also vs. Good, and that Isengard was an independant entity of Sauron, and the hobbits moreorless independant (more accurately, apathetic) of the kingdom of Arnor and the north men.

Just my three cents.

 

[Arexack_heretic]

Indeed. Hobbits as a civ would be ludicrous.
The best way to include them is as a minor civ.
and unlikely heroes.

A minor civ that is nonexpansionist, non agresive and is always cautious of outsiders, but never holds a grudge for long. Similarily other civs never pay much attention to the little people, even orcs are indifferent at best and hungry at worst.
One might trade with the Shire, help them out when attacked or attack them yourself.

--
I'm unsure about Isengard. It is only a small faction, but highly productive and agressively expansionist.
Given time and a bit of luck, Isengard could become a rival to Mordor.

 

[Elda King]

I'm going to repeat: this game isn't a scenario about Lord of the Rings, but a mod (played on a random map) about the entire history of Middle-Earth. The Shire only is founded at 1400 (I'm not sure if it's 1400 or 1600) of the Third Age, about 5500 years after this mod begins; and hobbits had importance, so they are in the mod, but not political influence: not as a civ, but helping other peoples, so we plan to have a wonder (for example, The Shire) that allows your civ to build hobbits.
And for Isengard, we have Saruman as a leader for the Dunlendings, a civ of Men (so, present from the starting of the game, but later becoming a civ more related to The Shadow, with orcs and everything). Putting Isengard as part of The Shadow was our earlier idea, but we prefered this way, so we could have a bad civ that is not totally warlike (the Shadow is meant to be almost invincible at war, but wouldn't have most pacific wonders and buildings, making it weak culturally/economically for example, and unable to win by a peaceful way).
For the One Ring, I posted my ideas on the Chamber of Records yesterday, before I read those ideas of yours; so I'll post here what I wrote there (about the Avatars of Sauron and the Ring):

Avatars of Sauron
These are some ideas I have for having Sauron as a playable unit. I don't know if it can be done, or how, but I tried to make it as simple as possible.
History: Sauron was a powerful Maia, a angelic spirit, created before the world, and corrupted by the Dark Lord Morgoth. This way, he had several powers, between those the power to change his shape at will, and so he could trick his enemies or take the shape of terrible beasts to fight them. When his master Morgoth fell, he became a new Dark Lord, but he gradually lost his powers: he built one ring to control the Free Peoples, and had to put much of his strength into it, and lost his body in the fall of Númenor; when the Ring was taken from him, he became even weaker and incapable of assuming another corporeal form.
Description: The Shadow can build, at some time of the First Age, a powerful unit that represents Sauron in the game (one Avatar of Sauron), a unit with reasonable strength and powerful skills. When this Avatar is killed, after some turns a new one, less powerful, spawns at The Shadow's capital. When this new Avatar is killed, another weaker Avatar spawns after some turns, and so on. The Avatars can have different names, like Annatar, Necromancer, Great Eye, Dark Lord, Lord of the Rings, Sauron, Gorthaur, etc.
Goals: Have another unit, different, spawn some turns after one specific one is killed.
Alternatives have one unit only buildable after one is killed.
List of Avatars: Each avatar has it's own skills, that should be like the spells of FFH.
Gorthaur: strength of 5 or 6, can change his shape to a Werewolf (str. 9), a Vampire (str. 2, movement 4 or 5), or a Snake (can poison another unit, making it suffer damage over time).
Annatar: str. 4, invisible to non-heroes (like spies, that should also be detected by heroes), can start The One Ring production in a city.
Lord of The Rings: str. 5, is upgrade rather than spawned when Annatar is killed, gives bonuses to units in the same stack.
Dark Lord: str. 4, can build the Temple of The Dark Lord wonder, and perhaps spread the Worship the Darkness religion (without disappearing, of course).
Sauron: str. 4, if killed "loses the Ring", +50% vs hero units, perhaps a Fireball power.
Necromancer: str. 3, sees 8 tiles away, if killed "loses the Ring" (just for the case of Sauron is killed before the Ring is finished).
Necromancer (yes, another): str. 2, sees tiles away, if killed "loses the Ring" (just for the case of Sauron is killed before the Ring is finished).
Eye of Sauron: str. 1, sees 6 tiles away, if killed "loses the Ring" (just for the case of Sauron is killed before the Ring is finished).

The One Ring
This will need some parts of the Quest for the Silmarils comp, and will be linked to the Avatars of Sauron.
History: Sauron disguised and sugested to the elven-smiths of Eregion the making made the Rings of Power, that would give them great power; but he made in secret One Ring that would control all that used the other rings. He put great part of it's power into it, so when he lost the ring he became weaker, and needed it to fully recover it's power; however, he coudn't be destroyed without destroying the Ring.
Description: The second Avatar of Sauron, Annatar, should be able to build the One Ring wonder, that gives several benefits to it's civ: perhaps it could make all the civs with Rings of Power allies (if we later make a upgrade of the mod to Warlords, it should be Vassal States) of The Shadow, and give free promos to units, or even extra gold/hammers/research. But when the current Avatar of Sauron is killed (only the Avatars after Sauron, the 5th Avatar), the Wonder is obsoleted and one "The One Ring" unit is randomly spawned at any land tile on the map, and must be "taken" by another units, like the Silmarils are; however, it isn't invisible. If taken to the capital of the civ, it gives the same benefits of the wonder while it's in the capital; but if taken to the city that has this wonder (let's say, by a Hobbit, an invisible unit ) that civ automatically wins the game (or The Shadow is destroyed). I don't know if The Shadow should be able to win the game by taking the game by returning it to the city where it was created, and perhaps instead of a wonder we should get a unit from the beggining (it would just make it harder to make it a prerequisite for Nazgûl and such), and perhaps the ring should only spawn when the next Avatar of Sauron spawns (difficult if the Great Eye, the last avatar, loses the ring - in the improbable case that all the earlier dye before the ring is finished).

 

[TRN2]

Is this mod Vanilla, or Warlords, or both? I thought it was Warlords, but going through the XML - it appears it is for Vanilla...
Thomas, I'll try and debug your file - for Vanilla...

EDIT:I got it debuged - there is still however a missing building...
hence a few small errors on load, but it does get to the start

Spoiler :

Missing Building:Rivendale

I am in the middle of uploading it now, I'll post link when it is done...
2nd Edit: Doh!- I just started a game and there are more errors there bbl with a properly debuged version ;(

 

[Arexack_heretic]

Ah. You already put alot of thought in the struggles surrounding the OneRing.
good, nice ideas. here are some more from me.

I don't think returning the ring to the city of it's creating should be a winning condition of the Darklord, but rather a means of destroying/weakening him.

Returning it to Sauron himself could restore him to a previous, more powerfull incarnation. (see below for powers I associate with ring ownership.)

Constructing the One ring is a dangerous gamble, as it first requires allowing the other civs to build Great rings, triggering their golden ages, plus increasing their powers. Also it becomes a neccesity to Sauron to have the Ring. I can immagine a DarkLord civ not building the Ring and trying to dominate the world through sheer force.
I may be wrong here, as I'm certainly no LotR historian.

Some more ideas of my (fuzzy) impression of the role of the Ring:
---
0) Age of the Darkness (prehistory)
0.5) Age of the two trees (and the great march). (Wonders, can be desolated by Spider)
0.75) Age of the silmarills.
1) In this Age Annatar can 'befriend' the other nations and research a 'suggest Rings of Power' tech, which enables the others to build rings. (maybe give all civs a free GreatPerson(annatar) that can be sacrificed to give a free Ring-tech)
1.1) Rings are wonders so everybody knows where they are being built.
1.2) Once one or more Great Rings are in play, Annatar can start constructing his One Ring.
1.3) If the One ring is in play, no sane player would construct more.
1.4) Those that do have rings of power, cannot destroy them.
1.5) Diplomatic relations with Sauron are always maxed to positive. Relations with all others suffer negatively.
1.6) Units with a GreatRing cannot engage Sauron in direct combat. If they do they are immediately converted to Suaron.
1.7) The darklord can spy in cities with GreatRings or have LoS from units carrying rings.
1.8) If Sauron is defeated in combat, the Ring is lost and dropped on the tile he occupied. (or scattered randomly as you suggested)
1.9) Rules for One ring carrier-ship as described in earlier post. plus added combat power, magical abilities, etc.
2.0) Owning the Ring (not Sauron): cities with the OneRing in it get +100% militaryproduction. Allows recruiting of Orcs. etc. Prevents declaring War on Sauron. Sauron knows the city where the Ring is held.
2.1) Becoming a darklord. If Ring is owned, civ can research 'Command of the Ring', which allows commanding the Nazgûl, and effectively replaces Sauron as the DarkLord: Owner of The Ring will see relations with other civs deteriorate, untill they are in the same corner as Sauron.
(There should be a no-return clause here, invalidating certain civics, preventing builds of certain units/buildings, changing the preferred religion to Dark, etc)

Ring visible to Sauron
-When picked up by hero? (*PING*+LoS)
-When carried by hero? (as described in 'Ring-corrupion' earlier)
-When ringpower used by hero? (automatic failure of corruptiontest: *PING*+LoS)
Remember: 3 successive failures cause a herounit to turn to Sauron and once the ring is picked up by a unit (other than a hobbit), it cannot be droped, so choose your carrier wisely, as you may need to scrifice him/her later.
Leader Avatars (magically able ones) may be immune to direct takeover, but will suffer the 'I am the Dark and Terrible Queen'-complex. (as described in [2.0])

This could end with several DarkLord-civs all fighting over ownership of the Ring. (and with anyone else for that matter)

 

[Elda King]

Ah. You already put alot of thought in the struggles surrounding the OneRing.
good, nice ideas. here are some more from me.

I don't think returning the ring to the city of it's creating should be a winning condition of the Darklord, but rather a means of destroying/weakening him.

Returning it to Sauron himself could restore him to a previous, more powerfull incarnation. (see below for powers I associate with ring ownership.)

Constructing the One ring is a dangerous gamble, as it first requires allowing the other civs to build Great rings, triggering their golden ages, plus increasing their powers. Also it becomes a neccesity to Sauron to have the Ring. I can immagine a DarkLord civ not building the Ring and trying to dominate the world through sheer force.

Agreed.

0) Age of the Darkness (prehistory)
0.5) Age of the two trees (and the great march). (Wonders, can be desolated by Spider)
0.75) Age of the silmarills.

I plan to start the mod with the arrival of the Noldor to the Middle-Earth, if not by other reasons because it would be hard to have some civs (the Men) to start the game later (Rhye's and Fall of Civilizations did this, but it's a mod all about it, with many other things in order to balance it).

1) In this Age Annatar can 'befriend' the other nations and research a 'suggest Rings of Power' tech, which enables the others to build rings. (maybe give all civs a free GreatPerson(annatar) that can be sacrificed to give a free Ring-tech)
1.1) Rings are wonders so everybody knows where they are being built.
1.2) Once one or more Great Rings are in play, Annatar can start constructing his One Ring.

I'll just make the Rings a very attractive wonder, so everyone (at least AIs) will risk building it; the Ring should be buildable even if there are no rings, but it would reveal your entire plans (no one would build rings, and you would get only a few bonuses).

1.5) Diplomatic relations with Sauron are always maxed to positive. Relations with all others suffer negatively.
1.6) Units with a GreatRing cannot engage Sauron in direct combat. If they do they are immediately converted to Suaron.

They would better turn into a Alliance with Sauron until il loses the ring.

1.9) Rules for One ring carrier-ship as described in earlier post. plus added combat power, magical abilities, etc.
2.0) Owning the Ring (not Sauron): cities with the OneRing in it get +100% militaryproduction. Allows recruiting of Orcs. etc. Prevents declaring War on Sauron. Sauron knows the city where the Ring is held.
2.1) Becoming a darklord. If Ring is owned, civ can research 'Command of the Ring', which allows commanding the Nazgûl, and effectively replaces Sauron as the DarkLord: Owner of The Ring will see relations with other civs deteriorate, untill they are in the same corner as Sauron.
(There should be a no-return clause here, invalidating certain civics, preventing builds of certain units/buildings, changing the preferred religion to Dark, etc)

Ring visible to Sauron
-When picked up by hero? (*PING*+LoS)
-When carried by hero? (as described in 'Ring-corrupion' earlier)
-When ringpower used by hero? (automatic failure of corruptiontest: *PING*+LoS)
Remember: 3 successive failures cause a herounit to turn to Sauron and once the ring is picked up by a unit (other than a hobbit), it cannot be droped, so choose your carrier wisely, as you may need to scrifice him/her later.
Leader Avatars (magically able ones) may be immune to direct takeover, but will suffer the 'I am the Dark and Terrible Queen'-complex. (as described in [2.0])

I would make it necessary to bring the Ring into the capital to gain any bonuses, but if we have king units we could also make it possible to bring it into your king. And I think that the "corruption" of the ring would be just using it, not having your units becoming evil or changing religion: if you bring it to your capital ("use it"), you have fallen into the temptation of the ring and gave up on destroying it (harder, as you have to bring it to where it was built, but wins the game).

And TRN2, I planned to make it for Warlords, but some things changed my mind: 1)Warlords wasn't launched in my country, so I can't build it - unless I import it, what would be more expensive. 2)thomas.berubeg also hasn't Warlords 3)We can allways convert it later, and even add some things.

 

[Crezth]

I'm going to repeat: this game isn't a scenario about Lord of the Rings, but a mod (played on a random map) about the entire history of Middle-Earth. The Shire only is founded at 1400 (I'm not sure if it's 1400 or 1600) of the Third Age, about 5500 years after this mod begins; and hobbits had importance, so they are in the mod, but not political influence: not as a civ, but helping other peoples, so we plan to have a wonder (for example, The Shire) that allows your civ to build hobbits.
And for Isengard, we have Saruman as a leader for the Dunlendings, a civ of Men (so, present from the starting of the game, but later becoming a civ more related to The Shadow, with orcs and everything). Putting Isengard as part of The Shadow was our earlier idea, but we prefered this way, so we could have a bad civ that is not totally warlike (the Shadow is meant to be almost invincible at war, but wouldn't have most pacific wonders and buildings, making it weak culturally/economically for example, and unable to win by a peaceful way).
For the One Ring, I posted my ideas on the Chamber of Records yesterday, before I read those ideas of yours; so I'll post here what I wrote there (about the Avatars of Sauron and the Ring):

As I said before, I had not read the whole topic, but it does appear that this is fairly well thought out. I approve, for what that is worth.

As for having the Shadow being "invincible" at war, is that entirely wise? I'm wondering how that is intended to be gone about. For if other nations have wonders and wealth, while that is fine, if the Shadow are better at war then it is irrelevant. Unless the wonders are supposed to improve cities' defensive capabilities (of which there would likely be one), then it seems the Shadow would always win.

I'm still a bet skeptical about your plans for the Hobbits. I really believe they should function as a minor civ (seeing the end of Return of the King, it is hard to believe they oughtn't be), and about this being a "history of Middle-Earth", wouldn't that best be reserved for scenario makers? This should be the means - employing all civilizations, like in ordinary Civ IV (for America certainly was not a political entity 6000 years ago), and allowing the history of Middle-Earth to be completely open to alternatives. What if the hobbits had their Shire in the First Age? I think by restricting some things, this becomes less of a Mod and more of some Scenario-hybrid.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Is this mod Vanilla, or Warlords, or both? I thought it was Warlords, but going through the XML - it appears it is for Vanilla...
Thomas, I'll try and debug your file - for Vanilla...

It is for vanilla

EDIT:I got it debuged - there is still however a missing building...
hence a few small errors on load, but it does get to the start

Spoiler :

Missing Building:Rivendale

I am in the middle of uploading it now, I'll post link when it is done...
2nd Edit: Doh!- I just started a game and there are more errors there bbl with a properly debuged version ;(

I know rivendale does not work yet... i'll put it in when i get art for that.